mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 26, 2015 9:19:41 GMT
The progression of events in the Keogh position is always interesting. Let me throw in a thought or two. Keogh is found in a position that suggests some kind of orders grouping and is well away from Calhoun Hill. This of course is a "snapshot", we do not know how long he has been there. Maybe a few minutes maybe a lot longer. I suspect a few minutes, long enough to collect the NCOs. While he is there the whole position unravels. Why is he not supervising the skirmish line at Calhoun and the movement of Company C down from there? If he ordered Harrington to make his advance why would he then leave and go to his final position? I suggest that he is getting ready to move out. When Harrington heads off Company C is moving downhill and I think, judging from photos, will quickly be lost from view due to the topography. If this is the case then with no view Keogh may feel he may as well go and issue orders at the Company I position. (?) Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 26, 2015 11:56:38 GMT
Hello Mac, it would make sense for Keogh to keep monitoring the positions of his three companies plus Indian movements, it wouldn’t surprise me if he had a senior NCO and an orderly/trumpeter riding with him. I think he did keep active around battle ridge, viewing proceedings. But was I company committed in battle formation or standing to, if they were standing to, and out of view Porter could be unaware of what was going on until Keogh returned, whether or not he arrived wounded or not is impossible to say.
But I just cannot see Keogh committing I Company in skirmish order, leaving L to fight alone and send C Company off on a mad dash down into a coulee. That would mean that his whole battalion was committed in some way or other, thus giving him no chance of pulling out.
If that was the case then surly Keogh must have known that his position was in danger, if so he should have sent a rider to Custer saying that he was unable to re-group.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 26, 2015 14:05:54 GMT
Let's let Montrose weigh in on this. I think we will then have three different viewpoints on this so the parameters of a future debate will be set and we can go from there.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 26, 2015 16:37:46 GMT
Does it seem strange that 1st Sergeant Bobo of C Company was found next to the body of Capt. Keogh? C Company collapsed over 700 yards maybe more, and its command structure could all have died on Finley-Finckle Ridge named after its two remaining line sergeants (C Company only had three line sergeants and the removal of Sgt Kanipe reduced it to two) but Bobo either ran or ridden clear or was with Keogh in some capacity.
Just a thought now over to Montrose.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 27, 2015 15:38:38 GMT
Mac I am afraid that that grouping of NCO's around Keogh may well have been to hand out the sheet music to "Nearer My God To Thee"
It was a little late in the game for an orders group, I think. By all rights they should not have been, rather on the line with their soldiers.
I am also having some difficulty with the Company C survivors getting all the way back to Keogh's position from Greasy Grass and F-F Ridge, especially if they were on foot. That is a pretty good ways to run over broken terrain. I am not particularly saying that it could not be done, more that there was an element of elapsed time involved, time which could have been used more profitably by Companies I and L. How long would it take for a man in riding boots loaded with carbine, pistol, and ammunition to run 900-1000 meters if running was all they did?
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 27, 2015 19:22:35 GMT
Mac, just looking at you avatar reminds me of the line from the movie the light horsemen, "They are not cavalry, they are Australian light horse and the British don't know how to use them"
Yan.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 28, 2015 1:06:34 GMT
Mac I am afraid that that grouping of NCO's around Keogh may well have been to hand out the sheet music to "Nearer Mt God To Thee" It was a little late in the game for an orders group, I think. By all rights they should not have been, rather on the line with their soldiers.
I am also having some difficulty with the Company C survivors getting all the way back to Keogh's position from Greasy Grass and F-F Ridge, especially if they were on foot. That is a pretty good ways to run over broken terrain. I am not particularly saying that it could not be done, more that there was an element of elapsed time involved, time which could have been used more profitably by Companies I and L. How long would it take for a man in riding boots loaded with carbine, pistol, and ammunition to run 900-1000 meters if running was all they did? All true! Makes a compelling subject for analysis doesn't it? So why does Keogh end up where he is if it is so long after Company C has been hit? Gotta go. Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 28, 2015 12:34:12 GMT
Mac I am afraid that that grouping of NCO's around Keogh may well have been to hand out the sheet music to "Nearer Mt God To Thee" It was a little late in the game for an orders group, I think. By all rights they should not have been, rather on the line with their soldiers.
I am also having some difficulty with the Company C survivors getting all the way back to Keogh's position from Greasy Grass and F-F Ridge, especially if they were on foot. That is a pretty good ways to run over broken terrain. I am not particularly saying that it could not be done, more that there was an element of elapsed time involved, time which could have been used more profitably by Companies I and L. How long would it take for a man in riding boots loaded with carbine, pistol, and ammunition to run 900-1000 meters if running was all they did? All true! Makes a compelling subject for analysis doesn't it? So why does Keogh end up where he is if it is so long after Company C has been hit? Gotta go. Cheers The spatial association of Keogh and Company C personel does raise the question of why Keogh was there at the same time. Could it be that he was part of the retreat from Calhoun Hill? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Jul 28, 2015 12:58:37 GMT
Doubtful that he was, but possible, I would think. He was found a good distance away from Calhoun Hill and with his own company. You know all that of course but it leads to this - When you find a man standing over a dead body with a freshly fired gun in his hand covered with high velocity blood spatter, and there is not another living soul around, you have then a pretty good idea this is the person who shot the dead man. It may not be so, but the probability is fairly close to 100 percent.
It does not seem that he would participate having two other companies to look out for. I am not at all certain that he ordered C to move down into that area, although that should have been his call and no one else's.
The only thing that can be said for "almost certain" is that the three companies were poorly positioned given both the nature of the terrain and the amount of opposition then building. Dismissing Greasy Grass Ridge and Deep Ravine just for a moment, the opposition coming from the southwest and building up at Henryville and up Deep Coulee was in itself enough to drive a wedge between the whole of the Custer contingent and anything coming from the south. Custer being where he was could not have been aware of this, so it fell to Keogh to make an estimate of the situation and do something. Under those circumstances the one thing you do not do it put a third of your combat power further out on the limb that is being sawed off.
Let's just go back to the Custer Apollo map presentation we saw posted here a few days ago, and accept it as complete truth. CA says L was in skirmish order with C and I in reserve. OK then, reserves are only there to be prepared for possible commitment. The only way a commander knows if, when, and how that commitment can or should be made is to be forward to see, and sometimes by intuitive feel. Judging only by the evidence we have there is no indication that Keogh was anywhere but near where he was found. That may be a completely unfair indictment of the man, but that is all we have. Anything else ranges from speculation to flight of fancy.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 28, 2015 13:15:50 GMT
Could Keogh have reigned in his perimeter to allow for mutual support? would the terrain actually allow this with the three companies having their own frontal beaten ground plus interlocking zones of fire? and finally could they defend a 360 degree area with no flanks.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 28, 2015 13:32:33 GMT
Sure, and the place to do that is Calhoun Hill. The result however would have been the same, just a change in venue. They would probably have lasted longer. There is no place to secure the horses. A possible loss of ammunition would present itself if the horses were scattered prematurely. Decisive engagement would occur almost immediately. It would take more Indian combat power to secure the same result, but the chances of them (the Keogh battalion) sustaining itself is near non-existent.
Ian, I think the only possible chance for any survival would have been had the Yates and Keogh battalions reunited early in the vicinity of Calhoun Hill. Still, that is far from certain. Even if they had, they would have required sufficient time to construct an all-round defensive perimeter. Remember that one of the T's in METT-TC is for time available. If they had tried to retain their mobility while in that perimeter, I think even a consolidated effort would have failed. As I see it their chances were dependent on putting up a defense that was stiff enough to convince the Indians that the casualties incurred by assault made such an effort unprofitable, and they would opt to contain by close contact until their infrastructure was safely away, as they did the next day with Reno/Benteen.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 28, 2015 14:25:21 GMT
Chuck, if Keogh was ordered to hold this area with no cover, then he was on what we say over here "a hiding to nothing"
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 28, 2015 14:29:27 GMT
Clearly Ian, any such order was overcome by events. If one is to be considered courageous, that must also include the courage to disobey in the face of a changing situation.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 28, 2015 20:14:09 GMT
This is why I think he kept on the go and not hid away on the other side of battle ridge with his company (I) as this group was out of sight of what was going on the western side of the battle space, so if C company took off on a foray without Keogh's knowledge then this would leave the whole area open with warriors just eager to fill the void, these could then cut off the whole battalion from Custer's line of march. So I think that Keogh ordered the charge but may have expected them to return and any skirmish line would be temporary to allow for a pull out by L company, followed by C and eventually the whole battalion. Does this make sense?
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 28, 2015 21:49:37 GMT
First off Ian, Second Lieutenants sometimes do very dumb things. You have to teach them to be both aggressive and smart. A similar thing happened with 1-7 Cav at LZ XRAY when a platoon got cut off for more than 24 hours because of a decision made in haste by on overeager 2LT. Cost that platoon over 50 percent casualties, and even then they were lucky.
If you are asking if the Keogh battalion could have broken contact using standard TTP (tactics-techniques-procedures) I think the answer is yes, but it would have to be fairly early in the game, and Keogh would have to understand that he was in or shortly would be in an untenable situation. I am not sure he had that many eyes to see how bad off he really was. As soon as those Indians got into Crazy Horse Ravine his candle was blown out.
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