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Post by quincannon on Jul 30, 2015 3:55:17 GMT
Hit early also means someone else takes command. That is Calhoun. No indication of that happening.
Remember what Holmes said. Well Doyle put the words in Holmes' mouth but that's beside the point.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 30, 2015 9:27:42 GMT
If Keogh was languishing with his company would he be blind to proceedings over the ridge line? If so then I find this totally unacceptable, he was commanding three companies not one, which could be down to him being busy conducting some sort of defence around the eastern side of battle ridge, if so then he must have thrown any thought of upping sticks and moving out in the garbage bin, because he knew that L company was engaged plus as was his own company, that leaves C company as the only mounted force, so any order to send them down the slope would be down to Harrington, because I don’t think either Keogh or Calhoun would be in any position to issue such orders.
Any move by C company off battle ridge would leave a huge gap in Keogh’s rear, L company would be defenceless by any attack from this area, C company would have held this place for a reason, as Keogh over on the blind side would have no view, thus depending on Harrington to watch their backs.
Yan
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 30, 2015 9:31:19 GMT
Happy birthday Mac, it was mine yesterday, so I hope your day went as good as mine did.
Yan.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 30, 2015 13:11:06 GMT
Thank you Ian. I have just had a very nice evening with the family. A perfect birthday! Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 30, 2015 13:36:30 GMT
Nice one Mac.
I wonder if at any point Keogh’s three companies were out of sight of each other and all fighting their own personal battles. I company may have been blind to what L company was doing on Calhoun hill and C company was out of sight of Calhoun when they went into the coulee.
If all three were engaged and out of sight and support of each other than this would make the Indians job easier, as these small companies could only defend themselves for a short period of time before they get out flanked.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 30, 2015 14:40:20 GMT
Happy belated birthday to both of you, and many returns.
When Mac visits in about seven weeks, we can see what his answer to your question about being out of sight is Ian. Once Company C deployed there was in effect three separate battles going on, none related to one another, nor were they even oriented in the same direction.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jul 30, 2015 19:50:06 GMT
Keogh being wounded very early on would certainly help account for the poor showing of his battalion. However it is possible he was hit somewhere other than where he was found, and was taken there as it was probably an area not under fire at the time. Later, as things went further south, his sergeants surrounded him in an effort to protect him from the onslaught. With Calhoun and Crittenden probably dead by the time the buffalo run started, and Keogh wounded, leaderless soldiers would naturally break and flee in the direction of LSH. My opinion is that Keogh was wounded pretty early on, leaving a leadership void at a time when leadership was most needed.
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Post by Beth on Jul 30, 2015 20:41:36 GMT
I know it's been mentioned before about the sergeants surrounding Keogh to protect him but I am afraid that it just doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't the sergeants be with the men, if someone took an injure Keogh behind the action wouldn't it be someone who is less key than whatever remains as a source of command? Couldn't the reason Keogh and the sergeants were all together is because Keogh was in the process of issuing orders and they just got overcome by a wave of hostiles?
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Post by Beth on Jul 30, 2015 20:59:15 GMT
Happy Birthday and belated Happy Birthday Mac and Yan
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jul 30, 2015 21:32:24 GMT
Beth, it is entirely possible a wounded Keogh was giving orders to the NCO's that were found around his body, but that would mean they were overwhelmed in that position before the NCO's could depart the area to implement his instructions. This would tend to indicate that I company fell apart at around the same time C and L were being wiped out. The most plausible battle flow for that sector is from Calhoun Hill northward toward LSH. For the NCO's to have been unable to leave Keogh to take command would indicate that flow from south to north was very rapid, meaning all 3 companies fell at nearly the same time. I don't know if that rapid a rate of battalion destruction holds water, given C company's move toward Greasy Grass, and their subsequent retreat back to Calhoun Hill and then toward LSH. Simultaneous destruction doesn't make sense when we look at where the men from C and L company were found, scattered from Calhoun Hill to near LSH.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jul 30, 2015 22:11:38 GMT
I think Ian is correct and all three at one point had no sight of each other. I also am tending towards the rout of C then L as a continuous flow with I as an initially separate action and the C and L flowing into it. I think CH attacked I and Lame White Man attack began the C nad L action. I expect to find at the site that Keogh had effectively two positions to control not one. Cheers
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Post by Beth on Jul 30, 2015 23:16:32 GMT
Mac I look forward to hearing your impressions.
I sure wish there were pictures of the area looking towards the river from before the road went in. I've been looking at the McGuire map since I believe that it is one of the earliest of the area but I think it really only shows the extremes of the terrain ravines and hills, not swales, creases and gaps that could have been used by the NA to approach unseen--yet they do exist, especially when the grass is long.
Beth
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 31, 2015 3:02:39 GMT
Happy Belated Birthday! Boys Regards Dave
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jul 31, 2015 3:33:08 GMT
My money is on Keogh being just about where he was found throughout most of this action, and that is not the place he should have been. There are just too many disconnects, and it is apparent at least to me he did not have positive control of either Company L or Company C. The most obvious reason is simply that he was not there. One possibility is that Keogh was wounded very early in the action and simply put there in a place of some safety. This may account for the issues in this part of the battlefield. Plenty of options for arterial bleeding in a leg wound, so who knows his condition? Cheers Mac Albert Sidney Johnston died from arterial bleeding behind his right knee in approximately 30 minutes. His popliteal artery was torn but not severed which lessened his chances of the artery clotting as partial tears do not clot as well as when severed. It has been speculated a wound to his right hip incurred in an previous duel might have damaged the nerves in his leg to the point that he might have realized he had been hit. Two of the sad ironies of the Battle of Shiloh was the presence in Johnston's coat pocket of a tourniquet and that he was hit with friendly fire. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jul 31, 2015 3:58:29 GMT
OK, Colt speculates that Keogh was hit early on. Let's go with that for a moment.
1) Where does consensus say he was when hit?
2) If he was hit at a place other than the Company I area, why was he carried, rode, whatever back to the Company I area?
3) If he was hit in the vicinity of the initial positions of Companies C and L, why did not the next senior (Calhoun) take over command of the battalion?
4) Does consensus say he was hit before or after the Company C countermove?
5) Do we have any evidence of the nature of Keogh's wound(s)? Any commentary on them anywhere?
6) What role did Porter play in this? Is there any evidence as to his activities? At the very least he should have assumed command of Company I. Did he?
7) Continuity of command is axiomatic. A leader falls and the next senior officer of the line takes his place. Is there something that we are missing that would lead us toward some solution here?
8) Virtually everything said on this thread is possible. How do we winnow down the possible to the probable? Can we?
San Houston suffered a similar leg wound at San Jacinto, yet he retained command. Sam was fortunate. He should have died from his wound and nearly did.
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