mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Aug 2, 2015 11:59:25 GMT
Ian and QC Good points gentlemen. I think with the C advance seven minutes seems quick but I wonder how much they got to do after dismounting. If they were quickly engaged maybe seven is viable. We'll see. In the time Fred allows there is not much time to actually get too organised at the gap and CH was very aggressive and bold. It does seem to me that Keogh was trying to fight two battles. One in the swale/gap and one on Calhoun Hill. I would not really know but with only 3 companies I would not want to start two fronts. Better to get mobile and head towards Custer. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 2, 2015 18:16:24 GMT
Mac, that’s why I think that when “I Company” was committed (either by orders or Indian attack), that “C and L” had been beaten and were in full retreat, why I think this is the notion that, if Keogh wanted to pull his battalion out, he may have needed to cause a ruckus to distract the Indians from the skirmish line long enough for Calhoun to extract his troops, I company would be standing too over the ridge line.
Back to “I Company” if they were out of sight over the ridge then I don’t think that any warriors were on the east side yet, if they did appear then Keogh would soon realise that he was surrounded on at least three sides, which would make a pull out virtually impossible with all his companies committed to defence.
Yan.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 2, 2015 18:29:19 GMT
How do we know that “C Company’s” destination was in fact “Finley Finckle Ridge” and not “Calhoun Coulee”, after all who said this is where they were heading, the Indian accounts are terrible with terrain features and all the soldiers died, so except for some markers that could have come from men running to get to Cemetery Ridge, we have no proof at all.
Riding out of view is a no no for me, as this small unit lacking in NCOs and only one officer would be lost in the expanse, and really the officer who sent them out had no respect for the Indians and treated the operation like it was a policing job dispersing demonstrators from outside a government building.
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 2, 2015 19:10:55 GMT
I don't think either of them were Ian. We assume the mission was to neutralize the fire from Greasy Grass Ridge, so the destination would be the place where that could be accomplished. F-F Ridge and Calhoun Coulee were most probably only means to that end.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 19:12:52 GMT
From the evidence we have, L and C Companies were on Calhoun Hill. I Company was in reserve in a swale.
I believe Keogh was with his company. He was in a position to assist Benteen and McDougal link up with him. His company was perfectly positioned to observe the arrival of the trains, and conduct a mounted movement to help them clear a path. There were Indians between Keogh's force and the avenue of approach for the regimental rear body.
Fred proposes a movement to cover a gap further north. This reflects a knowledge of events east of the ridge, and total ignorance of what was going on west of the ridge. It was a very minor threat in the big picture. But for a commander in the swale, it was the largest threat he could see.
The C Company attack was an agreement between LTs Calhoun and Harrington. CPT Keogh had no knowledge of it, nor of the situation on Calhoun Hill. Indians were doing bravery runs between the hill and the swale, and it was too perilous for messengers.
If Keogh had been on Calhoun Hill, he would have died there with Calhoun and Crittenden.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 2, 2015 19:22:06 GMT
Calhoun hill is around a 1000 yards from greasy grass ridge, so I would expect that any return fire would need to be under 500 yards to have any real effect, C company on battle ridge would have to move around 600-650 yards to get to Calhoun coulee.
Hello Montrose, if some Indians were making bravery runs between the swale and Calhoun hill, would that in-effect mean that Calhoun was cut off his horse holders?
Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 2, 2015 20:08:49 GMT
I hate to admit it but Montrose is correct. The reason I hate to admit it, is that as many times as I have looked at those maps, and in particular the Bonafides pictomap, it never occurred to me that any reinforcement (including the train) would come on an axis Sharpshooter*Luce*N-C Ridge Complex. The swale has a direct line of sight.
We are so fixed on the route Benteen and the trains took, that we dismiss and overlook the route that Custer would expect them to take.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Aug 2, 2015 22:09:15 GMT
Fantastic insight montrose! Something to distract me all day . Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Aug 2, 2015 22:16:48 GMT
In the light of what is happening on the west side is that the place for the commander to be? Cheers
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Post by Beth on Aug 2, 2015 22:23:19 GMT
I don't suppose this Bonafides pictomap is still available?
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Post by quincannon on Aug 3, 2015 3:15:12 GMT
Ordinarily Mac, you expect the commander to be where he is most needed, exercising control of the whole.
Keogh's body location is damning evidence, but it is also a moment in time, and does not speak to where he was five or ten minutes before.
Where I am in complete agreement with Montrose is were Keogh up with C and L he would have died there. The wound would have been completely and immediately incapacitating, and as such he could not have been removed, and would have died when L was overrun.
Unfortunately Beth that map has been out of print since 2011, and I have not even heard a rumor of reprint.. Mine is in tatters.
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Post by Beth on Aug 3, 2015 3:54:47 GMT
I think that is one of the most frustrating things about trying to read the battle based on the markers. You are just getting one data point, this is close to the spot a body ended up. You don't know which way the person was traveling at the time of death, you don't know if he fighting or running for support and cover and unfortunately too many times we don't know exactly who it was-and at best we can make an educated guess.
Beth
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Aug 3, 2015 5:03:17 GMT
I hate to admit it but Montrose is correct. The reason I hate to admit it, is that as many times as I have looked at those maps, and in particular the Bonafides pictomap, it never occurred to me that any reinforcement (including the train) would come on an axis Sharpshooter*Luce*N-C Ridge Complex. The swale has a direct line of sight.
We are so fixed on the route Benteen and the trains took, that we dismiss and overlook the route that Custer would expect them to take. I once spent a lot of time trying to see if the Keogh position gave a line of sight to where custer may appear to the north. I thought it probably would but did not think to "look" in the other direction. I also see great logic in the proposition that had Keogh been on Calhoun he would have died there. We are back to the amazing degree to which these companies have been deliberately split into individual units. Astounding! Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 3, 2015 12:20:09 GMT
It looks like Keogh was covering all bases with his three companies, one is in skirmish order to provide suppressive fire, the second is mounted in a support role (a role which it performed and perished) and the third was standing to, ready to escort or usher the re-enforcements to their destination. So Keogh was set and ready to obey orders, which would have been ok if Benteen was right behind and following their trail.
This of course led to Custer performing a similar role over on cemetery hill, he had one company in skirmish and the other mounted same as “C and L”, he and the HQ would have performed the Role of “I company” with their battle flags indicating their position.
Yan.
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Post by royalwelsh on Aug 3, 2015 13:32:59 GMT
From the evidence we have, L and C Companies were on Calhoun Hill. I Company was in reserve in a swale.
I believe Keogh was with his company. He was in a position to assist Benteen and McDougal link up with him. His company was perfectly positioned to observe the arrival of the trains, and conduct a mounted movement to help them clear a path. There were Indians between Keogh's force and the avenue of approach for the regimental rear body.
Fred proposes a movement to cover a gap further north. This reflects a knowledge of events east of the ridge, and total ignorance of what was going on west of the ridge. It was a very minor threat in the big picture. But for a commander in the swale, it was the largest threat he could see.
The C Company attack was an agreement between LTs Calhoun and Harrington. CPT Keogh had no knowledge of it, nor of the situation on Calhoun Hill. Indians were doing bravery runs between the hill and the swale, and it was too perilous for messengers.
If Keogh had been on Calhoun Hill, he would have died there with Calhoun and Crittenden. Montrose,
I broadly agree with that. I am inclined towards Lt Harrington acted of his own volition, for the simple reason that I would expect Lt Calhoun to have considered (before requesting) the implications for himself if Lt Harrington was defeated or driven northwards away from his own right flank.
As the massacre began with the Keogh battalion collapse, GAC either unable or unwilling to flee with RQH-HHD/F/E, this is pivotal to events that day. I know I have a greater opinion of Keogh than others, not least because he was one of the few officers whom Benteen seemed to have much time for, but I have no problem with the idea that he was fixated upon the desired link-up and lost situational awareness.
If Keogh had been at Calhoun Hill, and in addition to the obvious logistics in moving him if he had been shot there, then he would have realised from the hostile build-up that it was time to vacate northwards and forget any notions of any link-up with Benteen (let alone McDougall).
RW
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