mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 21, 2018 3:08:37 GMT
I have a thought, and decided this was as good a place as any to put it.
In the 5 companies theory I see two critical points of tactical breakdown.
The first is the deployment of Company C to FF Ridge where they present their right flank to Lame White Man.
The second is at Battle Ridge Extension where accounts reference a company (I say Company F) that was forced to run along the ridge towards the Gray Horse troop (Company E then on Cemetery Ridge).
Both these events distract the fire of their support (in 1 Company L and in 2 Company E) from the enemy and ultimately destabilise the Calhoun position and the Cemetery Ridge position respectively.
Just saying it.
Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 21, 2018 10:59:07 GMT
Do you think tactical breakdown was caused by lack of unit cohesion or individual and unit demoralization/fear? Or, the other way around? Or, management flaw or oversight?
Regards, Tom
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 21, 2018 11:16:14 GMT
Currently I suspect the Problem on FF Ridge was the lack of awareness of the scale of the warrior presence beyond GG Ridge. I leave open the purpose of occupying the ridge:- protect Company L right flank Force a passage towards Weir Point area is a second thought we have aired here.
For the BRE breakdown I lean towards the volume of warriors on three sides creating some panic but I suspect, still looking and thinking, they may well have lost a substantial number of horses also creating panic. Naturally I view this as part of the 5 company scenario with the final company moving towards LSH as the other companies retrograde back along Battle Ridge. The eternal problem of being the last to break contact. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2018 12:28:18 GMT
Whatever the reason for two companies to hold positions at the southern end of battle ridge are, they seem clear enough to me that these two positions are the best two around, not perfect, but the best.
But the problem we have with small company units holding on to these locations is that they offer little in regards to fire power. Its like dropping 30 odd men on a promontory and asked them to engage multiply targets plus leaving their horses exposed.
Once any of these companies dismounted and the horse holders led the horses away, they were well and truly fixed and this could be why four of the five were swept away in a sea of Indians.
In the case of C Company, their position on FF Ridge didn’t have the dead zone which Calhoun hill had, by that I mean that their skirmish line was to close to the enemy thus they were susceptible to Incoming fire. C Company was a weak company in terms of man power and their skirmish line could have been as little as 25 men, maybe even less.
The problem which faced Custer’s scattered companies is the point of concentrated fire power and the fact that each of the positions held by them had to cover too much ground. These positions could never be held for any length of time and could only limit the advance of the enemy until the position was flanked and overrun or the horse were driven off and the men panicked.
We are still not sure if only four out of the five companies in the Custer battalion was actually deployed on foot, my guess is that C, E and L and possible F fought in this mode and was eventually forced onto the back foot by enemy surges which not made their position untenable, but cost them their horses. But Company ‘I’, now this is one I am not sure about and the only two theories I have is that either this company held a position to the east of LSH and was forced south and ran into the remains of C and L, or was caught in transit, but the problem I have with the latter is that, why didn’t this company fragment into small groups of mounted soldiers and scattered all over the area, instead we have two discernible positions in which this company died.
We could have a scenario in which both ends of the Custer battalion collapsed in a domino effect and all roads led to LSH, E and F from BRE and Cemetery Ridge and L and C from the southern end of Battle Ridge, with Keogh’s company sandwiched in the middle, but due to the ground covered by C and L, they never made it and got cut off from the rest by Crazy Horse. But I am still at odds with E Company also not making it to LSH and running south or towards the river to seek cover, leaving F Company as the only unit to reach LSH, which concurs with some of the Indian accounts and the markers found. Around fifty are found which pretty much covers F and the HQ.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 21, 2018 13:54:04 GMT
Mac, The loss of horses certainly played a large part at Calhoun Hill, Cemetery Ridge, and I think the Keogh area as well.
The only area where a proper skirmish line was deployed war by L Company on Calhoun. There was no such thing as South Skirmish line. Many are fooled by spurious markers.
What about lack of spatial awareness by offices and NCO's as it pertains to infiltration prior to collapse?
Regards, Tom
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Nov 21, 2018 14:01:18 GMT
Another cause of breakdown could be loss of leadership. Many of the NCO's and officers could have been killed or wounded in each company, leaving few to none to control the company. This would most definitely cause leaderless and ill-trained troops to breakdown into "every man for himself" mode.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2018 14:23:04 GMT
As far as officers go, you may have hit the nail on the head Colt. one of the earliest thoughts I ever had on this battle,was the idea that E and C where the keys that opened both doors of the demise of the Custer battalion with E being forced off cemetery [which left F exposed] and C being forced up hill towards L, making Calhoun shift his fire. Now the captains of these two companies were found on LSH and the junior officers were not identified on the field, although some say that Sturgis may have been found on SSL but apparently his cloths were in the village. So that could men that the four officers commanding these companies were either killed on their location or on LSH, leaving both companies in the hands of NCOs.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 21, 2018 16:24:10 GMT
Myself I think the 5 companies were in a retrograde from LSH with C leading the way.
If Custer was going on defense from Ford D area why not stay on CR and LSH with the 5 companies?
Regards
Steve
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Post by quincannon on Nov 21, 2018 16:30:04 GMT
The key to tactical breakdown in this instance is very simple I think. A case of the too's
TOO much ground (to cover).
TOO few troops to cover it with
TOO much distance between TOO small companies
TOO many Indians
MASS is a force all unto itself, and when it is achieved by one side or the other, the day is over, It does not matter how good or bad the opposition is
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2018 20:32:39 GMT
Well I am no military planner but even I can see that by looking at a map of the field, that these companies where not set up to defend that area with a defense plan and any defense was a off the cuff last minute thing hastily adopted to repel or block enemy attacks. So one group was threw forward to slow down the enemy whilst some got away and those who did manage to get away found their escape route blocked and forced to halt to defend the area in front of them. This could be why they are spread all over the place with no concentration of firepower.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Nov 21, 2018 21:22:54 GMT
MASS is a force all unto itself, and when it is achieved by one side or the other, the day is over, It does not matter how good or bad the opposition is I think it was a Confederate General that said "The key to victory is to be the firstes with the mostest" Be Well and a happy Thanksgiving to all and your families Dan
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 21, 2018 21:43:44 GMT
Two short points to add.
Many warrior accounts show that they deliberately targeted the horses.
There is an account from LSH of a warrior pointing out the man who seemed to be controlling the troops on LSH. This makes it apparent that they also targeted officers.
Both of which will generate chaos for the troops.
The sequence at Calhoun area requires a longer answer and I will try to address that tonight.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 22, 2018 9:49:14 GMT
Many warrior accounts show that they deliberately targeted the horses. That's the thing though Mac, we read about the horses getting drove off and in some cases the horse holders killed, some accounts say that these horses were held in groups of more then the four stated in the manual, which gives an indication of the chaos. Some Indian accounts also state that some of these soldiers were on foot and holding their own horse and trying to fire their carbines at the same time. Then you have other accounts saying that the women waving blankets scared the horses, which sounds strange because they must have been really close to do this and not attract fire. But the problem I have is trying to determine just which company each account refers , for example we could be looking at three different areas here with E Company losing their horses on cemetery ridge, C Company like wise on FFR and finally L Company, whose horses apparently where in a swale area actually named as 'horse holders ravine'.
Here are some old accounts I have on my hard drive;
Black Elk: He saw grey horses, their saddles empty, stampeding toward the river.
Brave Bear: The three companies turned their horses loose.
Brave Wolf: The three companies turned their horses loose.
Crow King: The troops tried to hold onto their horses, but as the Indians got closer, the horses were released. The troops fought bravely
Flying By: Flying By captured some horses and brought them back to the village. When he returned he went to the east end of the battlefield [Keogh sector]. Many soldiers were already killed.
Flying Hawk: The men on Last Stand Hill had their horses with them. They were also the only ones surrounded
Flying Hawk: The troops horses ran down the ravine and into the village.
Gall: The Indians made a special effort to kill the horse holders and stampede the horses.
Gall: the warriors directed a special fire against the troopers who held the horses, while the others fought. As soon as a holder was killed, by moving blankets and great shouting the horses were stampeded, which made it impossible for the soldiers to escape…. As fast as the men fell the horses were herded and driven toward the squaws and old men, who gathered them up.
Good Voiced Elk: Only a few of these last soldiers had their horses and greys were mixed in with others. The troops who broke off LSH for the river were dismounted.
Lone Bear: There were short stands made on Finley Ridge and Calhoun Hill, but a heavy “stand” in the Keogh Sector. Many horses were killed there, but none before the troops had reached Finley Ridge.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 22, 2018 9:57:47 GMT
There is an account from LSH of a warrior pointing out the man who seemed to be controlling the troops on LSH. This makes it apparent that they also targeted officers. Mac, only me again!
Does this warrior name the place where he saw this officer? Could he be getting LSH mixed up with Calhoun hill? I suppose that if you are looking up at a ridge line as large as battle ridge, that any group on that hill would stand out. Maybe he was watching Calhoun direct his men as he was found dead along with his second on the place he defended.
Here is another account;
Brave Bear [Southern Cheyenne] When I got across the river, I saw three companies making stand and noticed one company on the other side of them on knoll. I cannot understand why the three companies did not try and help those that jumped off the bank, or why all of them didn't cross over and fight in the village. I think Custer saw he was caught in bad place and would like to have gotten out of it if he could, but he was hemmed in all around and could do nothing but only to die then.
These three companies turned all their horses loose; that is, the horses that were not shot down already. Only one officer stayed on his horse. It did not take long to kill them here. I saw Yellow Nose with a flag coming out from among the dead soldiers. Eight soldiers started towards the company on the knoll. The officer on horseback was behind them. Cheyenne charged this officer, and this officer shot him in the head. Sioux with scalp lock charged at him also, and he shot this Sioux in the breast. Another Indian then rode up and shot this officer off his horse. I captured his horse. It was sorrel horse. This officer killed these two Indians. I have been told since then that Custer was with that one company on the knoll.
I wonder if this knoll was LSH? The only company with Custer to have Sorrell horse was Company C.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 22, 2018 11:05:58 GMT
Ian I do not have the time I thought I may have tonight to address everything. The yellow text mentions Yellow Nose and this action is generally agreed to be on FF Ridge; often with the officer being Harrington (?) maybe. The account re targeting officer is definitely from LSH.
As you know I lost a lot of data and so I may take a while to track it down again. As regards horse; thanks for those quotes, one day I would like to find time to put them more in context. A general rule (and I mean general) is Cheyenne accounts are in the north and Sioux accounts are south.
I will add this about Company L The position of their first skirmish line (archaeology) has puzzled me for a long time. I believe they are the "Custer" that Gall says he saw in his account. If Gall saw Calhoun then Calhoun saw Gall. My thought is that Calhoun would then need to address Gall's presence. The point being that his first skirmish position is a response to Gall's position rather than a position Calhoun wanted to be in. As numbers build around Calhoun he is forced to make an orderly retrograde of his line up the slope to the top of Calhoun Hill. The point here is that I believe it is clear that Company L were the first to leave Custer but that their first skirmish line may not reflect their desired route but rather the necessity dictated by the warrior deployment. More as time permits. Cheers
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