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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 26, 2018 15:54:56 GMT
Ian, you may be leading to Steve's story, maybe it was two who left the LSH area at the same time. I was not present when he heard the account.
Regards, Tom
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2018 20:58:49 GMT
As I have stated in the past, why didn't L, C and I simply ride as a battalion. Three companies would be more effective as a breakthrough force then three in piecemeal. I think Ian that the purpose here was to break contact by gradually withdrawing companies away from the north behind the concealment of Battle Ridge. I suspect too that there may have been an intent to consolidate later for the push back to Reno/Benteen. The problem was that they met large numbers of smart fighters at both ends of the ridge and hence the two tactical breakdowns. No time now but later I will post re your information on Gall and Crazy Horse with respect to this. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 26, 2018 21:01:30 GMT
Tom, I can see why Foley was even on LSH, Dose yes as he was a orderly-trumpeter for Custer's HQ. I wouldn't be surprised that Foley never dismounted on FFR and carried on riding to MTC. C Company could have been down to 30 all ranks when it reached FFR and could have lost over 50% of its strength when the survivors finally reached the Keogh sector.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 26, 2018 21:05:25 GMT
Mac, I am pondering with the notion that I Company just managed to get clear when E and F got into trouble. The door was well and truly shut behind them and they rode out of the frying pan and into the fire before they could even deploy.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2018 21:52:11 GMT
There is no known reason why Foley would be anywhere but with his company Ian, and by the same token Dose starting out the day being detailed to the headquarters detachment, does not mean he would end his day there.
The two most likely reasons for Foley being found where he was are either being intentionally sent as a messenger, and launched as same as the rest of Company C dismounted, or simply that he could not control his horse and it ran away with him.
The most likely reason Dose was found where he was is that sometime during the day, he was returned to his company, or carried a message back to his company, and never returned, or was not required to return to the headquarters.
The battlefield is not a static place, and we would be in grave error if we took these abnormalities as either significant or as something to draw conclusions from.
We have absolutely no knowledge of what transpired in these personnel affairs after Martini and Kanipe left, and damned little knowledge of what even transpired before.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2018 8:00:59 GMT
You echo my sentiments perfectly Chuck, as there is no reason at all that Dose should not be with his company.
Foley was previously detached to the HQ.
Going a little off topic here but the two I Company men who Custer gave to Reno and where sent back to the HQ with messages, we're also not found with their company but on LSH with the HQ staff.
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 27, 2018 10:57:50 GMT
Mac, I am pondering with the notion that I Company just managed to get clear when E and F got into trouble. The door was well and truly shut behind them and they rode out of the frying pan and into the fire before they could even deploy. Pretty much it Ian. The tactical problem at LSH was that the warriors had infiltrated in numbers around the north of BRE. This is often referenced as being done by Crazy Horse but there is no evidence I have seen for that. Red Hawk is a good reference and he tells us that both Gall and Crazy Horse were in front of Company L in the south (Henryville) urging the warriors on. I believe Gall stayed there and ultimately led the attack on the L skirmish line. Crazy Horse went back down to the river crossed and then went up Deep Ravine, smart move to get behind them. Crazy Horse led the attack on Company I and as far as I can tell did not go on to LSH because he was off pursuing soldiers fleeing from that southern action.
I will say more about the action around LSH later. Cheers
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 27, 2018 12:10:41 GMT
Foley was well mounted and a good reason to have sent him with a message. According to Chris Dixon, Foley's horse was outrunning the Indian ponies when he shot himself. The horse would have held special meaning to the Cheyenne's and only certain society members could touch the horse. Crazy Horse could not.
I think even if Foley shot himself how do we know that it was suicide. Drawing his revolver he may have had an AD.
I have not seen the Dose marker so it is either in a drainage out of sight or some other location. On the facebook page there is a person making maps showing markers. I look at the Sgt Butler marker on it and it doesn't appear to match where I know the current marker is located. If the Dose marker is close to Butler and Foley I would think someone would have shown it to us. Fred's group is quite knowledgeable and we walked to Butler and Foley.
I think Gordie was right in what we were going to do in 2010. Go to specific sites and take GPS recordings and measurements.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 27, 2018 12:22:03 GMT
I think when you are absolutely about to be destroyed. You focus on the best chance you have for a messenger to make it through. At that point you would ignore company affiliation and send your best. Sgt Butler was tough and Foley most likely had the fastest horse. These things would have been known within the regiment.
Tom as far as the story of Foley, Chris presented it at Gettysburg and it was more about the horse and Crazy Horse. I was slightly distracted (beer) at the talk and Chris is hard for me to understand.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 27, 2018 12:24:09 GMT
Next year maybe we can get my friend to take us to the location where a soldier from LSH rode to and died on Custer Creek.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2018 19:37:21 GMT
These link will give you all some good info on the butler marker.
Ian.
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 27, 2018 22:16:22 GMT
Lt. Godfrey made a statement about one of the dead troopers,
Sergeant Butler, "The Indications were that he had sold his life
dearly, for near and under him were found many empty cartridge
shells. "
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 27, 2018 22:22:33 GMT
In my mind the beginning of the end on BRE was when Company I left. This left Company E ,by all accounts still intact on Cemetery Ridge, and Company F out on BRE. At this point F needed to "close up" towards LSH. I believe they may have lost horses at this point as accounts suggest they "ran" towards LSH and required fire support from Company E to cover them. I remember an account that referred to horses being stampeded and running down to the river. Anyone remember or able to post this? I have not been able to find it again.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2018 23:12:03 GMT
Mac I will have a good look for you in the morning mate.
The accounts posted by both of us really shows that crazy horse may not have gone through any gap via deep ravine.
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 28, 2018 4:01:49 GMT
Brave Wolf's account of the LBH battle in an interview with George Bird Grinnell, 1895, in Hardorff's Cheyenne Memories,
When I got to the Cheyenne camp, the fighting had been going on for some time. Custer's soldiers were right down close to the Little Big Horn river but east of it. Just as I got there, the soldiers began to retreat up the narrow gulch. The troops were all drawn up in line of battle, shooting well and fighting hard, but there were so many Indians fighting them that they could not help being shot. They continued to hold their line of battle and kept fighting and falling from their horses -- fighting and falling all the way up, nearly to where the monument now stands. I think all their horses had been killed before they got quite to the top of the hill. None of the troops got there on horseback, and only a few on foot.
A part of the troops who reached the top of Last Stand Hill went on over and tried to go to the river. But they killed them all going down the hill before any of them got to the river. It was hard fighting; very hard all the time. I have been in many hard fights, but I never saw such brave men.
Here is one re horses lost (not the one I wanted)...just one man's view point.
The gap may be real Ian but there is no reason why they would not just come over the crest of the ridge is there? Cheers
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