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Post by yanmacca on Nov 25, 2018 11:29:24 GMT
And finally Horned Horse, now it wouldn't be a party without Horned Horse; When Custer made his charge the women, papooses, children, and in fact all that were not fighters made a stampede in a northerly direction. Custer, seeing so numerous a body, mistook them for the main body of Indians retreating and abandoning their village, and immediately gave pursuit. The warriors in the village, seeing this, divided their forces into two parts, one intercepting Custer between their non-combatants and him, and the other getting in his rear.I added this to show how Custer could have been mistaken and this could be the reason he move so far north, thinking he had them on the run. We read accounts from the officers who survived and how Custer's biggest fear was the camp circles escaping.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 25, 2018 11:57:08 GMT
Mac, you can see from my last map that the three markers for Butler, Foley and Dose are quite some distance from Calhoun hill. In fact Butler is closer to ford B then battle ridge. You can see the ford B area from the image I posted and from Calhoun hill to ford B, you are looking at a mile. I think that Butler died near Custer's bluff around 350 yards from ford B.
Anyway, what I am getting at is, if L Company was to head in the direction of the trail Butler made, would they have crossed over battle ridge and on to the west slope before they swung left around to Calhoun hill?
The route which Butler could have cut, looks more in line with C Company rather then L. So unless L made one hell of a swing up deep coulee and on to say 'Henryville' [we have agreed on Calhoun setting up his first line around this area], they would be nowhere near the Butler route.
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Post by crowsnest on Nov 25, 2018 14:13:33 GMT
In regards to Butler, you need to first ascertain his point of departure. If he’s departing from LSH his path certainly is curious. If he’s departing from Ford D then going directly south staying to the east side of the bluffs was probably the goal. His path then still made sense.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 25, 2018 14:21:05 GMT
The trouble with pictures for me is orientation and perspective. Foley marker is closest to MTC. It is visible from the road just before entering MTC. I think Tom and I heard Chris Dixon talk about Foley's horse and that only a certain society member could handle that horse.
The Butler marker is also visible from the pull but it a lot further from the road. I think it is near the middle of the gray line I put on my working Google map. When you take the Real Bird ride it comes back near the Butler marker. In these pictures you will see three paint horses and Chip's horse Miles. Notice the openness in the background. The advantage goes to the cavalry weapon system in this terrain.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 25, 2018 14:49:21 GMT
I am still thinking that C was clearing the path toward MTC on either side of ridge. My issue with C clearing Calhoun Coulee is that is based upon the 3 companies holding the Calhoun area. If they are in a full retrograde then clearing a path to take seems a priority to me. Why would they care if Indians were in Deep Ravine and out of range?
I see it as C in the advance and stopped at F/F. L on the ground and holding that position for I to move toward. E and F are holding the rear and never get to move south. I think E bailed off CR under pressure toward Deep Ravine. I suspect that is what observed rather than bailing off LSH. There are only two markers between LSH and CR and then the majority of markers extend toward the river. Markers are on both sides of Deep Ravine and some closer to the river.
I think a retrograde would be done as fast they could and they would not be concerned with the increasing number of Indians. They knew that and it is the reason for the retrograde.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 25, 2018 19:21:52 GMT
Steve, the problem I find is the timing issues, can we be certain of either C or L arriving first? Could we actually be looking at C covering L and then L covering for I?. If L was covering for I, then Keogh was well late because they virtually ran into survivors from L and C. L would have reached Calhoun hill, dismounted, fought in skirmish and broken by the time Keogh showed up.
It is not far off what I was thinking about last week, that if L was sent back, they ordered not progress beyond Calhoun hill and to dismount on arrival and wait for the rest of the battalion? You could call it 'falling back by bounds' with stage one getting off BRE, stage two getting across deep coulee and reach the high ground. We could be looking at stage three with the first company attempting to cross under cover of L's skirmish line and then covering the next stage by forming skirmish along Luce or Nye-Cartwright.
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 25, 2018 21:18:47 GMT
A couple of quick points, I will try to get back later with more.
The archaeology of the Company L positions is quite extensive and suggests that they were there some time and so arrived first. The FF Ridge occupation has little cavalry weapon use archaeology and in accord with accounts suggests that the occupation of FF Ridge was very short duration suggesting they were later arriving than Company L. Any notion of them clearing Calhoun Coulee is simply illogical which is why no sense can be made of it.
The initial route along the east side of Battle Ridge to Calhoun Hill for Butler and all the companies would seem to me to have the advantage of hiding the progress of the retreat from view from the river/warriors.
AZ you are "spot on" with the observation that the Butler marker is a good position for the weapon system. By all accounts Butler was a good shot and chose his ground well.
Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2018 4:43:16 GMT
Clearing a path Steve? I would term the entire exercise as opening a hole.
If you take it as a given that what happened on the Custer portion of the field is closely akin in concept to what Reno did in the valley, namely a breakout from encirclement. Not a retreat, not a retrograde, rather an attack to break out, an offensive operation from start to finish. then you must consider what was done but with Companies C and L as opening a hole, breaching the encirclement. It matters little then which one of those companies arrived first.
Reno in the valley was lucky in his breakout. He had the timber to shield his intention. He could gather his units into a cohesive whole and strike, breaching the encirclement just long enough for the Indians to give way temporarily, before they could mount a pursuit.
Custer faced the same situation on most unfavorable terrain. He could not gather his forces in a cohesive whole and strike. He had to hold some hostiles at bay until the encirclement could be breached. He must also allocate sufficient forces to hold the door open. I would submit then that Companies C and L were the doormen. Company L held those in Henryville at bay, while Company C attempted to hold the opposite door jam on F-F Ridge. The is no evidence or indication to my knowledge, that the hostile force at Henryville, and that facing F-F Ridge had up to that time joined.
The point then is moot, in that Custer could not hold off the enemy force in the north, and the act of sending a force south to open a hole gave the hostiles, just enough leverage to defeat Companies E and F.
CN: I don't buy a river route for Butler, but your premise is sound. Also there is testimony speaking of a lone rider coming south on Battle Ridge in advance of any units. If that lone rider was Butler and it probably was, he would have been given his mission by Calhoun, and no other, lending credence to Company L being in the lead.
Ian and all: The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. They were heading for Weir, and not thinking about traversing the route they came. In short I believe the intended route of retrograde after breakout generally follows the present park road, Crossing MTC and in front of Ford B would be a bitch, but, bad as it is, it beats the alternative
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2018 9:33:08 GMT
QC I assume you mean Ford B above. I had not considered the route towards Weir until someone brought it up recently but I now see the virtue of such a route.
Initially I considered that if one could gain the high ground at Weir then the bluffs would protect one flank for the rest of the trip. Thinking now that although as QC says crossing Ford B would be dangerous, at least the river itself is some sort of inhibition on warriors coming from the village.
Secondly One of Calhoun's problems, probably in part why he had to retreat up Calhoun Hill, is that there were large numbers building on his left flank as seen in the archaeology. Cheers
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2018 10:04:32 GMT
The relevant Butler reference from Ford D 5 Companies thread.
Gall told photographer David Barry: "..There was a soldier on a hill southeast of us still firing when the battle ended, and we had a hard time to kill him. He killed several of our braves. Finally some of the braves crawled up the hill on all four sides. While he was killing some in front of him, those behind him finally killed him." Warrior participants of the battle in later interviews reported pursuing a lone soldier from Calhoun Ridge for a long distance. Just as the pursuing warriors decided to give up on the chase; the soldier, for unknown reasons, suddenly stopped and dismounted. The warriors quickly moved in on him. It is possible that this lone soldier was Butler. The location of the marker www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyP0fafvJ3YRead more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/406/custer-moves-ford-companies?page=88#ixzz5XxBTyWrq
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 26, 2018 11:27:52 GMT
Mac, do you remember where Foley was found? I have the right book in the wrong location. Maybe Steve can chime in on this or others.
Regards, Tom
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 26, 2018 12:12:07 GMT
If driving you park at the pull out and walk up the two track road that you see in the video to the Butler marker. The Foley marker is closer to the road and to MTC. The last time we walked there it was with Fred's group last year. After leaving Sgt Butler marker we walked about half the back toward the road and more south. The Foley marker is visible from the road.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 26, 2018 12:26:29 GMT
Foley left LSH area did he not? It is your story, captured a year or so ago with solid NA confirmation.
Regards, Tom
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 26, 2018 12:32:47 GMT
I guess, an argument could be made that Foley could nave been with C Company.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 26, 2018 14:56:09 GMT
Tom, Corporal Foley was indeed an C Company man and so was Trumpeter Dose who was with the HQ that day. Strange how two C Company me were found dead in virtually the same place. I wonder if both Dose and Foley had instructions to try and breakout together and both were shot down.
Butler was a slightly different story, if he was the lone rider acting as a lone vanguard, he might have also had instructions to carry on though to Benteen if L Company got into difficulty.
As I have stated in the past, why didn't L, C and I simply ride as a battalion. Three companies would be more effective as a breakthrough force then three in piecemeal. In fact I still have problems with this withdrawal in that three of these types of withdrawal were initiated that afternoon and as we know, two of them [Reno in the valley and Benteen off Weir] were badly organized. Why would this one be any different.
Seems to me that when the Indians wanted to spoil your party, then they did by closing in fast and not let you do the things you are attempting in an orderly fashion. So if they see that you want to escape, they turn up the heat.
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