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Post by yanmacca on Nov 22, 2018 11:48:05 GMT
Mac, take your time mate, I only gave you a portion of those Indian accounts to view at your leisure.
Oh I defiantly agree that Calhoun had to respond to Indian movements, probably even to incursions to his left flank via deep coulee. That is the point I was trying to make in my earlier posts, that these companies had too much ground to cover and L Company is a good example. Once Gall and LWM started to make their presence felt then Calhoun had to dance to their tune and when C Company collapsed then Calhoun had another direction to cover which would have diluted his fire power, which ended up putting this position in jeopardy and probably panic his men too.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 22, 2018 12:24:40 GMT
One of L Company's skirmish lines faced Greasy Grass the other faced Henryville. May not have been simultaneously, but could have been.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 22, 2018 12:46:21 GMT
Tom, good morning to you. I always had a hunch that Calhoun commanded one line and Crittenden another and these lines covered two areas, but having a look at a marker map, you can see how close the two markers are for these two officers and it could be that they fell close to one and other [photo shows both markers], which could mean that L fought as a whole, but who knows.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 22, 2018 14:51:04 GMT
Maybe a wedge formation, who knows, if done that way coverage would have been slim.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Nov 22, 2018 15:39:26 GMT
Company L's movement is called refusing a flank. That is clearly what was done looking at the markers either on the ground or on a map. The direct reason for refusal of that flank is unknown, but in all probability was due to the collapse of Company C on F-F Ridge. The refused part of the flank, the part that faces Greasy Grass Ridge is much too far away to place fire on that ridge with any accuracy.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 23, 2018 9:07:16 GMT
The shape on the last line at the top of Calhoun Hill was as you both reference. My post was with regard to the very first line shown by archaeology to be lower on the slope. The bigger picture here is where were they intending to go, many seem to feel the actual goal may have been to get to Weir rather than follow their approach path. My thought is that that could be so but the presence of Gall et al may have forced an orientation away from the desired route.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 23, 2018 11:59:07 GMT
Mac, it depends on which route they took from BRE, the most logical would be the east side of battle ridge, which apparently could have been the way they come. So if we stick to this route for the return leg then this would bring them out here;
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 23, 2018 12:00:27 GMT
Now upon reaching their destination, they would be greeted with these famous locations;
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 23, 2018 12:03:45 GMT
So if you are asking me which route I would take to reach the south and safety, then the logical route to me would be this, as it looks like fairly good ground which would allow me to keep up a good pace and keep away from ford B, but this would only work if deep coulee was not occupied;
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 24, 2018 12:08:11 GMT
Great graphics Ian! Where would the Butler marker be on them?
Cheers
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Post by crowsnest on Nov 24, 2018 13:50:25 GMT
And as you head south you don’t have a clear view of Deep Coulee until you crest Calhoun Hill. Finding its blocked L puts on the breaks and sets up a skirmish line. C arrived diverts to FF Ridge to try to suppress the infiltration from Ford B, while I (who is third in line) attempts to press an opening to the west of Calhoun is met in transit, and routed. E and F protecting the rear are forced to fight it out as the south crumbles.
I think it shows no companies we’re left on Calhoun, and that all five companies moved to D and then retrograde.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 24, 2018 16:36:40 GMT
Hi Mac, sorry for the delay. I am struggling to find a decent photographic map to show the Butler marker. I have however have two map drawings to work from, one is Fred's and the other is from the book, Where Custer Fell.
I have tried to place the markers as close as I can on of the maps I have posted earlier, I hope I have the locations correct.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 25, 2018 8:33:23 GMT
Well done Ian! My opinion is that Butler was sent back ahead of Company L (probably to contact Reno/Benteen, just my opinion!). I have posted this before in the 5 companies thread and it is based on a warrior account of a lone rider who was stopped and ultimately, after putting up a strong and dangerous fire, killed. The circumstances of this account match precisely to the after action description of Butler's body. The point here is that I wonder if Butler's position is a good guide to the route the retrograding companies wanted to take back south. If Custer thought that Reno/Benteen were occupying warriors in the south and that the rest of the warriors were attacking him, then this route would be fairly open.
Lastly I ask why were Gall and Crazy Horse etc were in position in Deep Coulee to thwart this retreat? Most believe that Gall had been in MTC and that when Crazy Horse returned he went up MTC. If this is the case they would find the point where Custer crossed and exited MTC. Following Custer's trail would then place them right there opposite Calhoun Hill. This, to me, is a logical flow to the action. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 25, 2018 11:25:27 GMT
Morning Mac! I have found some data on Gall and Crazy horse, I don't know if it is of any use to you, but it maybe a starting point. First up is Gall; Gall’s role at the Battle of the Little Bighorn would become a controversial one. The encampment of Gall and Sitting Bull’s Hunkpapa’s was one of the first to be struck by the three companies under Major Marcus Reno and their Arikara and Crow scouts led by Bloody Knife. In the first stages of the battle, Gall was more of a victim than an active participant; two of his wives and three of his children were killed by the Army’s Indian scouts during Reno’s surprise attack. Although Gall was involved in the early phases of Reno’s ultimate rout, which forced the embattled major to retreat across the Little Bighorn River, the Hunkpapa war chief was denied the opportunity to meet Bloody Knife in combat; Gall’s mortal enemy was killed by a Lakota bullet that splattered his blood and brains all over the unfortunate Reno.
In fact, Gall spent most of the early phases of the battle scouting Custer’s five companies on the other side of the Greasy Grass, as the Lakota’s called the Little Bighorn. His diligent search for the whereabouts of his family also continued. When he finally found the bodies of his dead family members south of the Hunkpapa camp, he was devastated. ‘It made my heart bad,’ he later remarked. ‘After that I killed all my enemies with the hatchet.’ Gall eventually did lead a party of warriors across the Greasy Grass, but only after Crazy Horse and Crow King had preceded him. Following his crossing at Medicine Tail Coulee, Gall led a resolute charge against the dismounted troopers of Captain Miles W. Keough on a slope north of Deep Coulee. His main contribution was to exhort his warriors to stampede the horses of Keough’s embattled troopers, thus making it almost impossible for them to retreat. Gall was also one of the warriors who cut down those desperate members of Captain George F. Yates’ Company E who were charging down a hill to reach the Greasy Grass. One historian claimed that four or five of Yates’ men ran right into the avenging Gall’s arms and were promptly killed. The ubiquitous Gall even dashed across Custer Hill on horseback; he participated in the attack where Custer and approximately 40 of his men were killed during their so-called Last Stand.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 25, 2018 11:26:21 GMT
Next is Crazy Horse;
The warriors who were there told us where Crazy Horse went. After fighting Reno, Crazy Horse and Flying Hawk went back to the village to drop off some wounded warriors. They immediately went to Medicine Tail Ford, where Short Bull and Pretty White Buffalo saw Crazy Horse crossing the river. He was next located in the area of Calhoun Hill by numerous Indians who fought with him that day, including Foolish Elk, Lone Bear, He Dog, Red Feather and Flying Hawk. White Bull rode from the bluffs where Reno had retreated, directly north on the east side of the river. He approached Calhoun Hill from up Deep Coulee and worked around the hill where he joined Crazy Horse and his men, already fighting. Had Crazy Horse gone on his mythical northern sweep, or done half the deeds ascribed to him, he could not have been fighting near Calhoun Hill in this phase of the battle.
Only after the collapse of the Calhoun-Keogh position did Crazy Horse continue north where he may have, finally, confronted the last of Custer’s men making their stand on the far knob of the ridge. Or maybe not. Flying Hawk indicated that during the final phase of the battle, Crazy Horse jumped on his pony and chased off after one of the last fleeing troopers. Crazy Horse likely had nothing at all to do with the final fight on Last Stand Hill. He did not make a several mile sweep down the valley and hit Custer near Last Stand Hill from the north, and he did not attack from up Deep Ravine.
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