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Post by yanmacca on Nov 1, 2018 11:59:49 GMT
Mac, there is a track which runs down from east to west down deep coulee, it is visible enough on most google maps, but I have highlighted it in yellow. But there is another, more fainter track which runs north to south almost, right across greasy grass ridge and across deep ravine, before turning towards battle ridge, I had to highlight this track because it was so faint, but knowing me, it will probable be a dry water channel or something;
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 1, 2018 12:49:51 GMT
Mac
Most horses are stopped from entering the Custer Battlefield because of a National Park Service boundary fence. So what you can see is tracks across the fence. As far as the pie shape between Deep Coulée and MTC horses roam all over the land between Custer Battlefield and the Reno/Benteen Battlefield (also NPS land). SSR, Weir, Cedar Coulée and all other location between the NPS fences are either private land or Preservation Land. Preservation land requires permit or a lifetime membership which $100. I have the lifetime and it has been well worth it.
So as far as moving along the western travel corridor you would follow those markers on the field but they are inside NPS land. Two problems: NPS does not allow it and rattlesnakes. I know the Friends does a fund raising tour every year and one was on GG. The closest I have been on was on Calhoun looking toward Henryville.
So I doubt that even Custer Apollo has made an exploration in that area. Tom and I were talking about floating the river and it is still on my list. Lucy Real Bird said she would pick us up at Grandma's place and drive us back to our vehicles.
I guess you just have to come to the battlefield next June and show me.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 1, 2018 12:56:00 GMT
The line in Deep Coulée may even come from vehicles. You can drive out in some of these areas also after obtaining the necessary permissions.
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 5, 2018 12:01:18 GMT
I have been thinking about Curley and from what I posted earlier he seemed to know little of the battle soon after it, but then later was full of details. I think, like many others, he later added things he had been told about the action. I think that when told to go, he went. The part of his story I want to stick with is the bit before he was told to leave. We are discussing Company E and the likelihood of them moving on a route west of Custer as they moved to Ford D. Curley says Company E moved further down MTC after a stop in MTC. Prior to this at the stop he says Bouyer talked to Custer for a long time. I would propose that this discussion may have been on the distance to Ford D and the terrain between, for Custer to consider his best means of approach.
At this point Custer has not been troubled by warriors and he knows lots are in the valley dealing with Reno. The question is how to deploy moving past the village to Ford D. I need some officer input here (others welcome as always). I assume that deployment is situation based on the commanders initiative. In this case would a deployment of one or two companies on the western route seem a good/sound/probable idea at this point? Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 5, 2018 13:01:45 GMT
Mac, I think we have beaten up that question here. There would seem to be little of tactical value, but we were not there. Was there a build up of pressure from the village(Gall and others), they were sent to alleviate, or was there consideration of a two pronged approach, They did it, deal with it.
Give Curley a break, he was the first to report the battle results, not fluff. Others attributed some to him that he did not refute but did not contribute to. Later in life he may/probably have passed on some of what he had heard or just tried to please interviewers and translations may have failed him.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Nov 5, 2018 15:44:06 GMT
Mac: The universal principles at work here are
1) Do not split your forces in the face of the enemy.
2) Achieve MASS and keep it.
From that you can divine what should have been done, and I believe probably was done.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 5, 2018 18:44:32 GMT
Let me take a moment to put into perspective what I mean by testimonies/accounts by Curley and other Indian participants. And, yes I said testimonies, a passed member of another board use to carp about testimony is only given under oath in court. I will defend the use of the word here, if need be. One of the difficulties we have, a hundred forty some odd years later is that warrior testimonies generally only describe portions of the battles that they witnessed and unlike oral histories are incomplete accounts. Consequently it often difficult to place Indian descriptions in proper temporal and spatial contexts.
Added to the above both the Cheyenne and Sioux had different directional points of reference for this battle, North =Indian west, East=Indian north, South=Indian east, West=Indian south. Custer Ridge runs on our customary diagonal from the NW to SE. Are we all confused yet. The Native American primary direction is east all dwellings front doors/openings are oriented that way to greet the sun in the morning. Steve can check with his Navajo friend about the Hogans on the Rez.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Nov 5, 2018 21:44:40 GMT
Yes Tom, it is too bad that the poster you mentioned never considered Mathew, Mark, Luke, or John, all of whom testified, which was later codified in a testament, which we consider new, when he would often make that statement. Gosh I wish I had thought of that at the time. Remind me if you will to bring that up to him in the hereafter, should I run into him. Better late than never.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 6, 2018 0:20:14 GMT
I would only hope to meet you in the hereafter, among others. I just hope that I am not forced to make the wrong turn.
Regards. Tom
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 6, 2018 15:22:48 GMT
Let me take a moment to put into perspective what I mean by testimonies/accounts by Curley and other Indian participants. And, yes I said testimonies, a passed member of another board use to carp about testimony is only given under oath in court. I will defend the use of the word here, if need be. One of the difficulties we have, a hundred forty some odd years later is that warrior testimonies generally only describe portions of the battles that they witnessed and unlike oral histories are incomplete accounts. Consequently it often difficult to place Indian descriptions in proper temporal and spatial contexts. Added to the above both the Cheyenne and Sioux had different directional points of reference for this battle, North =Indian west, East=Indian north, South=Indian east, West=Indian south. Custer Ridge runs on our customary diagonal from the NW to SW. Are we all confused yet. The Native American primary direction is east all dwellings front doors/openings are oriented that way to greet the sun in the morning. Steve can check with his Navajo friend about the Hogans on the Rez. Regards, Tom I am a little confused. Not uncommon. Are we saying Indians used the words North South East and West or did someone not correlate the Indian words correctly for N,S,E,W. I agree that Indians know what direction the sun comes up. So who told them that the English translation is south?
I always believed that "boocoo dinky-dow" meant very crazy. I had no clue the actual spelling is Dien-Cai-Dao for crazy.
Steve
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 6, 2018 18:22:10 GMT
I know this sounds screwy but our primary direction is magnetic north, theirs is east=sunrise. The confusion was interpretation. Richard Fox even uses this orientation to explain this, he probably does a better job in explaining. Maybe your friend and his friend, Doug Scott can help you out.
Regards, Tom
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 6, 2018 18:28:53 GMT
I think it odd that Custer would think it is OK to move parallel to Reno in the valley with the NOGO terrain features and thousands of Indians but he would not think he could move north parallel with troops 5- 700 yards separated but easy to close the distance between them.
If Custer took all 5 companies east of BR then they never could find a fording place used by Indians nor a potential fording place or a hiding place for women and children. That would appear to mean the Custer had knowledge of current conditions at Ford Ds.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 6, 2018 18:32:05 GMT
I also corrected my post regarding the orientation of Custer Ridge is actually NW to SE.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 6, 2018 19:28:55 GMT
We have to forget the military handbook when trying to workout what was going through Custer's mind because he did things that no one here would have have done, and that includes people who have not served.
He was given advice from one of his senior captains [Benteen] about keeping the regiment together, but he carried on by sending him away from the main thrust.
So what ever he took with him over the bluffs would be all he thought he was going to need. He did however soon realize that he needed Benteen and made efforts to get him into the fight, but before that he was quite happy to let him join the column when he thought his scout was going cold.
Reno, however was given orders to advance by Custer through Cook, which means that Custer was not close enough to issue the order himself, which would also mean that he was not advancing along the same front as Reno.
The pack train was a different kettle of fish, and I am not sure if it was protocol to add a NCO and six men from each company to guard their respected company train. Also I don't know if it was in the manual to leave a company to act as a escort.
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mac
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Post by mac on Nov 6, 2018 21:10:06 GMT
Good insight Ian! We know the finishing point for Company E, here is a new confirming account from Iron Hawk a very late arriver at Deep Ravine area I would say www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/iron_hawk2_little_big_horn.htmlHis account matches our other discussions of Company E being on Cemetery ridge and the last to fall. We also know from accounts that they were at the river at Ford D and dismounted prior to retrograding leading their horses up to Cemetery Ridge. If they did move to Ford D along a path west of Battle Ridge we must look for an account that records them being seen moving in this location. Often these accounts exist but have been misplaced geographically by previous researchers. Cheers
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