Company E movements

[azranger]

Here my work in progress Google Map. I has my Benteen ride on it also. The gray line is a work in progress western travel corridor from MTC to LSH.

[deadwoodgultch]

Nice work.

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

The blue and orange lines would match the ones I was on about earlier Steve, with two groups keeping to the ridges inside MTC, which would mean that the companies kept away from the western side of MTC, which would show that there where targets in that part of the coulee which the soldiers fired at from Luce.

[yanmacca]

Oct 29, 2018 15:22:10 GMT azranger said:

Oct 29, 2018 14:54:18 GMT yanmacca said:

I have been studying that Curly map in the link above and thought of how if may look on a google map, so I have tried to transfer the data, what do you think?

Please take a close look at position 2 on the map, now Curly said he watched the battle from here, could that be possible? and how far from Reno hill was that position?

For me this Google maps distort things. This June I went with a Crow friend who is a Marine. He owns property in Cedar Coulée area where most people can't go. He took me to the location where he believes Curley made is observations from. it is not on his property. It is across Highway 212.

In 2019 I expect we will go with him again. It will be a good year to be at the battlefield.

Regards

Steve

It was rather tricky to try and line up both maps, but the circles I have placed on my google map are in the very same place as the Curly ones on the astonisher map.

The coulee he hid in looks like either middle or cedar coulee.

[azranger]

Oct 29, 2018 20:44:21 GMT yanmacca said:

The blue and orange lines would match the ones I was on about earlier Steve, with two groups keeping to the ridges inside MTC, which would mean that the companies kept away from the western side of MTC, which would show that there where targets in that part of the coulee which the soldiers fired at from Luce.

The blue lines are the routes and the orange is the route where artifacts are found.

The targets (Indians) were not in MTC or Deep Coulée. They were in that pie shaped piece of land between the Coulées and the Indians came at them from two directions. At the upper and wider part it has lots of cover, concealment , and terrain separators that work well for small groups to hit and run. Using a different ridge to fire from not only provides cover and concealment it also can separate due to terrain feature such as depth and slope.

What is important is that these were Cheyennes going after Custer. They were after him and used the terrain features to advantage.

The gray line is a travel corridor to the west and also where markers are located. They are on a line on a map but that line is not visible while on foot due to the terrain. That gray line would be hard to ride since it is mostly inside of the Custer Battlefield.  The advantage goes to troopers that can ride and shoot. The weapon system gains an advantage in the more wide open country west of BR.  Indians could be in between the drainages but when the trooper gets near the military crest they can be cleared. 

My belief is that there is two events if the gray horses went north on the western route. One or two shooters from the Indian side could pick off individual soldiers as they moved. We know later they had at least one sharp shooter against Reno. I think on the way over there were more Cheyennes close to Deep Ravine. Notice the markers are on both sides of Deep Ravine with a cluster closer to the river. If you follow the path on the Maguire #4 you will see it matches the marker. Of course they had bodies only for Maguire and Freeman.

In our era we have air support for recon but in 1876 to check a non visible ford required someone to ride to the edge of a bluff and look. If it looks good it could be checked for depth and footing. If it is opposed then maybe no need to check it.

Whether you believe Thompson or not what he describes is a methodology I believe would be used. Observe a ford, check for opposition and if none or little check the river bed itself. So I would think that using the western travel corridor could be a method to select a fording place. I think the goal was to cross the river.  You would also be able to check if non combats were hiding in drainages but only if you are close enough to look into them.

Chip Watts had just purchased a drone to check on cattle the last time I was there. I had rode with him in his 4wd Ranger and think the drone could save a lot time and be less dangerous. Doing his job checking on cows was something the brave ones do on quads. It was wet and slippery the day we went to check the cows.

So my thought is that it hard to for us to understand being out of range of the weapon systems of 1876 and only have horses for transportation, scouting, and fighting. Radios and air support were great additions to our fighting forces.

Got to get ready for another day on range. It is day two for rifle class.

Regards

Steve 

[mac]

Interesting gentlemen; keep it up!

I need think time.

Cheers

[azranger]

From Middle Coulee to Cedar Coulee there are 5 drainages and it appears as a palm up right hand. As far as the astonishers I am not sure how they derived thier circles. I think you could see action in MTC and climbing out of it but so much of BR. The sight my friend took me too is across highway 212. It could be where Curley moved to and out of contact or observation yet capable of seeing the end of the battle on LSH. Since he would be the only one there is no way to say what others saw. You have to believe him or not.

Camp should be praised for his desire but his methodology did not always seek fact. He believed something was true and attempted to get the witness to agree in some cases.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Thompson states the Indians rode in circle firing. That is one statement that comes under attack. If you have Donhue's book look at page 184 the Standing Bear map. It has Indian circle on it.

[azranger]

Camp map page v shows the two routes to LSH. G - Grayhorse troop reaches the ford here and retreated to H.

[yanmacca]

Thanks Steve because what you have said about the Indians using a pie shaped piece of land to engage the soldiers, would mean that the Indians could have been on both flanks of the columns and even to their rear.

If they did manage to box in the cavalry at this point, then surly warriors must have been in and around the ford B area too.

This does sound as if it was getting really hot for Custer in this early phase of his advance, which in my mind would rule out sending a detail to check out the ford or even sending a single 38 men company.

I don't rule out having a single company as a flank guard though, because with the Indians being active along the river, it would make sense to have cover in that area.

I guess that Custer would want to distance himself from ford B, which would give him breathing space to form an attack from the north end.

[mac]

I do not think anyone can actually know what Curly saw or where he was.

I interpreted for Lieutenant Bradley when he interviewed Curly [sic], several days after the Custer battle had occurred. He was spoken of then as the 'sole survivor' of the disaster. But he himself did not lay claim to that kind of distinction. On the contrary, again and again during the long examination of him by Bradley, the young scout said, 'I was not in the fight.' When gazed upon and congratulated by visitors he declared, 'I did nothing wonderful; I was not in it. He told us that when the engagement opened he was behind, with other Crows. He hurried away to a distance of about a mile, paused there, and looked for a brief time upon the conflict. Soon he got still farther away, stopping on a hill to take another look. He saw some horses running away loose over the hills. He turned back far enough to capture two of the animals, but later he decided they were an impediment to his progress away from the Sioux, so he released them. He told me he directed his course toward Tulloch's Fork and came down the same trail I had come down on another occasion with Captain Bull and Lieutenant Rowe."



"Romantic writers seized upon Curly as a subject suited to their fanciful literary purposes. In spite of himself, he was treated as a hero. He took no special pains to deny the written stories of his unique cunning. He could not read, he could speak only a little English, and it is likely he knew of no reason why he should make any special denial. The persistent claim put forward for him by others, but as though it came direct from him, brought upon him from some of the Sioux the accusation, 'Curly is a liar; nobody with Custer escaped us.' But he was not a liar. All through his subsequent life he modestly avowed from time to time what he did to Bradley, 'I did nothing wonderful; I was not in the fight.' I knew him from his early boyhood until his death in early old age. He was a good boy, an unassuming and quiet young man, a reliable scout, and at all times of his life he was held in high regard by his people." (Leforge, Memoirs of a White Crow Indian, 1928 edition, p. 250.)

The following comments were made by Capt. Michael Sheridan in a July 20, 1877 report from the LBH Battlefield to his brother, Gen. Philip Sheridan:



Lieut. Doane had kindly sent with me the Crow Indian named Curly, who has claimed to be the only person who escaped from Col. Custer’s party, and also Half-yellow-face, another Crow Indian who accompanied Maj. Reno in his attack on the village, in the hope that by going over the ground with them some intelligible account of the massacre might be obtained. Curly showed me the route he had taken and where he had hidden during the fight, and also described, through a good interpreter, the time and place at which he had deserted Custer, and I soon became fully convinced that he had run away before the fight really began, and that the greater portion of his tale was untrustworthy. Half-yellow-face was of no more account to me than Curly, and I therefore gave up the idea of obtaining from these Indians any account of the battle.


We are actually investigating one aspect of the McGuire map and making good progress.
I think AZ is saying that the topography suits the map path and would support Wolf Tooth's account of a small band harassing the soldiers and then escaping. How does the JSIT account fit is an important consideration rather than Curly.
Cheers

[azranger]

I think we maybe stuck on Wolf Tooth only and we are ignoring other Cheyennes that were in MTC. Presentations have been made on group of Cheyennes (maybe returning hunters) that also engaged Custer. Tom got me interested in the Cheyennes at more informed level.

While in Gettysburg for LBHA Tom asked Chris Dixon a question and Chris stated he could not respond. I agree with Tom that answer is yes for if it were no its easy to say it didn't. Tom will have to present the question because I don't remember exactly how he phrased it.

So I want to know things on the society level within the Cheyennes. Stating Cheyenne is not good enough if we want to get it right or at least as right as we are ever going to be. Chris gave us a good example. Corporal Foley's horse was faster than the Indians. When he was unhorsed only certain Cheyennes could handle the horse.

I think it is important because the history remains within these societies rather than a single overall history. It explains why accounts vary.

I think a great addition to any list of participants would be a society designation if know.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Oct 30, 2018 15:07:37 GMT yanmacca said:

Thanks Steve because what you have said about the Indians using a pie shaped piece of land to engage the soldiers, would mean that the Indians could have been on both flanks of the columns and even to their rear.

If they did manage to box in the cavalry at this point, then surly warriors must have been in and around the ford B area too.

This does sound as if it was getting really hot for Custer in this early phase of his advance, which in my mind would rule out sending a detail to check out the ford or even sending a single 38 men company.

Timing is everything. There is no indication of contact until Luce which means Custer climbed out of MTC and almost topped out and if the Gray Horse Troop had previously continued down MTC then Custer would not have been engaged until later. There is an Indian account that Custer was observed moving toward MTC before he entered.

I don't rule out having a single company as a flank guard though, because with the Indians being active along the river, it would make sense to have cover in that area.

The only reason I use E or the gray horse troop is because they are identified by color. Some believe it was E and F.

I guess that Custer would want to distance himself from ford B, which would give him breathing space to form an attack from the north end. So if Custer goes as far as where the gray horse troop turns that could place Martin within 600 yards from the LBH. He can easily catch up with the 3 or 4 companies.

I believe you are correct Ian. I think Wolf Tooth would be more east and north and others from the south.  These forces represent two things. Custer was a known group before he entered MTC. These actions slowed Custer and gave the Indians more time to get ready to fight. The forces were not enough to fix Custer but they slowed him down. I believe there were two dead horses found in that area. What happened to the unhorsed troopers if it occurred.

There is a group looking for remains of two soldiers suppose to be above the Pretty On Top property. Yes Tom it is the same Pretty On Top we met on Reno Creek Road. Should have asked more questions rather than focusing on his beer. A bad habit if you want information but as an officer I can't hardly ignore it. To many years of training and practice on the job.

This Bud is for you

Steve

[deadwoodgultch]

Steve, thanks for giving me credit for asking a question in Gettysburg, but we had discussed the subject and you had contacted the proper resource, Tall Bull. We need more follow up and we may find out just how far GAC really proceeded. I think Gordy may have had the answer.

The gentleman you talked to is the 4th level great grandson of Tall Bull (1830 - July 11, 1869) (Hotóa'ôxháa'êstaestse) he was a chief of the Cheyenne Dog Soldiers. Of Cheyenne and Lakota parentage, like some of the other Dog Soldiers by that time, he identified as Cheyenne.

He was shot and killed in the Battle of Summit Springs in Colorado by Major Frank North, leader of the Pawnee Scouts. You may recall I donated a book for auction "The Fighting North Bros." that was the first time I had heard of the Tall Bulls. His son was at the Little Bighorn, he was about 23 at the battle, he had also fought Crook on 6/17. The Cheyenne were camped at the location of the "Lone Tepee at the time of the Crook fight. This Tall Bull went to meet the Reno threat along with Wooden Leg and other young Cheyenne. They never crossed the river to chase Reno, but returned north to face the new threat. His horse was shot from under him at the battle.

With regard to this thread Tall Bull told Camp that a large number of women that crossed the river and headed to the bluffs to escape the Reno attack. These women were the first warning bell to the village and the warriors in the south of the new threat(Custer)as they returned to the village. This tidbit is detailed in Michno's "The Mystery of E Troop."

Regards,
Tom

The societies you mention still exist and are a matter of pride to the members. Members of the tribe still celebrate there youth who join our military

[mac]

AZ

It has just percolated through my memory that when I was standing on Calhoun Hill and looking towards Greasy Grass ridge I could see a horse track down below me in the coulee. I took this to be a horse tour track. Is this the position you see for the track west of Calhoun Hill?

Cheers