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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 25, 2017 21:57:07 GMT
Ian.
The women, children, old men, repaired to the benches west of the village, where they watched the battle along with Sitting Bull. The benches are the high ground west of t e village where the pony herd resided.
Regards, Tom
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2017 4:42:11 GMT
Thanks Tom! The thing is that they were not escaping as Custer imagined if he was planning to intercept them at Ford D.
Quotes to ponder as to who was where. White Shield Cheyenne (1908 interview) "When the Gray Horse Company got pretty close to the river, they dismounted, and all the soldiers back as far as I could see stopped and dismounted too." From the first, all the soldiers back as far as I could see stopped and dismounted too, does not sound like a description of a 2 company reconnaissance to me. Tells us Company E were nearest the river. Second Brave Wolf (Cheyenne contrary) "where Custer made his first stand-nearest the river....One company started to run when Custer was nearest the river and the rest fired on them and made them come back. This was the Bay Horse Company" (probably Keogh's but Yate's company F also rode light bays). Brave Wolf also said an officer was killed...Smith?? (could be the genesis for the nonsense of an officer killed in the river. Note they did not reach the river.) Disorder in the ranks? All not going smoothly?? Note Custer made his first stand-nearest the river ..... "first stand"... suggests his second stand was atop the hill perhaps. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 26, 2017 11:28:02 GMT
White Hawk mentioned about “Indians crossing over from the place the women fled and this crossing point was west of Custer Hill” So you can take your pick with this one as it could be “Deep Ravine” or “Gibbon’s Ford”
“The Indians crossed over to fire on the soldiers from the brush”, which is the stuff I was on about earlier. JSIT said that an Indian named “Hanging Wolf” shot at a soldier from this brush, apparently hitting his horse and bucking him off and the rest picked him up and they retreated north, which is not the direction of cemetery ridge?
Going back to when the soldiers moved back from ford D, JSIT said they paused on the high ground from the direction from which they came. Accounts do differ about this pause, with Custer halting for twenty minutes where the cemetery is located and Custer halting for thirty minutes on the flats below where the superintendents house is now located.
Fox said in his book that “Runs the Enemy” said that a defensive line [E Company] on cemetery ridge was near where the visitors centre is now located and he captured horse from that vicinity, but to be honest I cannot make out just where Runs the Enemy was located, because as with many of these accounts, it sounds like he was fighting in the Keogh sector, then on cemetery ridge, then back to the Keogh sector and finally LSH, anyway here is a portion of his account;
[Sounds like greasy grass ridge] We were all hidden along the ridge of hills. While Sitting Bull was telling this, I looked up and saw that the Cheyenne’s had made a circle around Custer on the west, north and east sides and that left a gap on the south side for us to fill. We then filled up the gap, and as we did so, we looked over to the Cheyenne side, and there was a woman among the Cheyenne’s who was nearest the soldiers trying to fight them. While Custer was all surrounded, there had been no firing from either side.
[Calhoun Hill or FFR?] The Sioux then made a charge from the rear side, shooting into the men, and the shooting frightened the horses so that they rushed upon the ridge and many horses were shot. The return fire was so strong that the Sioux had to retreat back over the hill again. I left my men there and told them to hold that position, and then I rushed around the hills and came up to the north end of the field near where the monument now stands. And I saw hundreds and hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around. The Indians dismounted and tied their horses in a bunch and got down into the coulees, shooting at the soldiers from all sides.
[He is now looking at cemetery ridge] From the point that juts out just below where the monument stands about 30 of us got through the line, firing as we went and captured a lot of Custer's horses and drove them down to the river. The horses were so thirsty that the moment we reached the river, they just stood and drank and drank, and that gave us a chance to get off our horses and catch hold of the bridles. They were all loaded with shells and blankets and everything that the soldiers carried with them. Just then, I returned to my men and the soldiers were still on the hill fighting, with some of their horses near them.
[This part sounds like he was facing Keogh] After the soldiers got back from the hills, they made a stand all in a bunch. Another charge was made and they retreated along the line of the ridge, it looked like a stampede of Buffalo. On this retreat along the ridge, the soldiers were met by my band of Indians as well as other Sioux. The soldiers now broke the line and divided, some of them going down the eastern slope of the hill and some of them going down to the river, the others came back to where the final stand was made on the hill, but they were few in number then.
[Now he is around LSH] The soldiers then gathered in a group, where the monument now stands, I visited the monument today and confirmed my memory of it and then the soldiers and Indians were all mixed up. You could not tell one from the other. In this final charge, I took part and when the last soldier was killed, the smoke rolled up like a mountain above our heads, and the soldiers were piled one on top of another, dead, and here and there an Indian among the soldiers.
Can any of you follow that! as this man was all over the shop.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 26, 2017 12:18:17 GMT
Ian: In both cases this one and the movement from Calhoun to BRE, I am telling you both what the book says and what I would do. I BELIEVE IN THE BOOK. The book is the summation of best tactical principles, techniques and procedures. Rarely if ever do I stray from the good word of the holy book of tactics. I assume that other commanders throughout history pretty much stayed by the book as well, therefore the book is a baseline from which you can judge performance. I believe the trouble you are having is visualizing how units move and deploy. That diamond formation we ironed out a few months ago is a formation for traveling, that provides all around security for the force, front-rear-flanks. It's not a formation for offensive battle. There comes a point for a unit traveling that it must deploy into line. For a battalion that means at an arbitrary point on the ground, where the battalion commander feels that the other side of which is the most likely place his battalion will meet the enemy, he designates as the Probable Line of Deployment (PLD). At that point the battalion commander releases his battalion from their traveling formation by bringing them into a battalion line. The released company commanders at that point will probably still continue on in company column, until they decide to further deploy into line. That is as far as I can go with 19th century force structure. In the modern day with modern structure. that company commander would bring his platoons on line, probably still in platoon column, and it would there become the responsibility of the platoon leader to bring his squads on line, and it may take one step further down to the squad leader to bring his squad on line Diamonds are for traveling. Lines are for shooting. Illustrations are for a three company battalion A battalion line, companies in column, after it crosses the PLD ( X indicates units and subunits; Ignore the dots. I had to put them in to show proper spacing) X .....X.....X X......X.....X X......X.....X A battalion line, companies in line XXX.....XXX.....XXX A battalion line platoons in line XXX.....XXX.....XXX------XXX.....XXX.....XXX------XXX.....XXX.....XXX A battalion line squads on line XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX...XXX Plus one more set of 9 X's Now don't get me wrong Chuck, as I appreciate what you are doing here and I know that you are trying to help me, but I know all about cavalry formations, because when I was a teenager I moved around Napoleonic cavalry formations under the watchful eye of some really shrewd wargamers. I do find it frustrating though, because I am more savvy on these things then some give me credit for. Here I am writing posts to show others my theories and any guests that frequent this site, must think that I don't know my ass from my elbow and thus unlikely to take me serious.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2017 15:46:50 GMT
Napoleonic cavalry, and American (dragoons) Cavalry Ian are as different as night is to day in the manner in which they operated. That is particularly true in the American west.
Napoleonic cavalry generally operated as a screen and shock action part of a larger force, where accurate artillery and small arms fire was not nearly as dangerous as it became in the middle of the 19th century.
The use of American cavalry in the Napoleonic mode came to a screeching halt at Gaines Mill, and after that cavalry was forced to adopt wide flexible formations, and its battle space per regiment and brigade became much larger.
The American west demanded even more flexibility, and that is one of the reasons you see a switch from the wing/squadron set up to the task organized for purpose battalion. There was just more space that needed covering, and American cavalry was not only the screening and shock action force of an earlier day, but rather the only force that had to do it all.
You see in much of the post ACW writing that cavalry officers knew that the days of the horse were numbered. The horse stayed around until the 1930's came along and we found something better. Meantime cavalry had to adapt to new ways of thinking and fighting and massed charges by compact cavalry units were not among them.
The general rule is the more accurate the enemy's weapons systems are, the wider and deeper the battle space must become. That is true for Infantry as well as cavalry, but Infantry does not have the mill stone of the horse tied around it neck. There were two reasons that we only sent dismounted cavalry to fight in Cuba. They were Mauser and Krupp. In France during WWI the only cavalry we sent operated remount depots for the AEF. The only way cavalry could hope to operate was in wide and deep battle space.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2017 21:12:45 GMT
[Sounds like greasy grass ridge] We were all hidden along the ridge of hills. While Sitting Bull was telling this, I looked up and saw that the Cheyenne’s had made a circle around Custer on the west, north and east sides and that left a gap on the south side for us to fill. We then filled up the gap, and as we did so, we looked over to the Cheyenne side, and there was a woman among the Cheyenne’s who was nearest the soldiers trying to fight them. While Custer was all surrounded, there had been no firing from either side. Sounds more like an amalgamation with the last reference, "We filled the gap...", being LSH.[Calhoun Hill or FFR?] The Sioux then made a charge from the rear side, shooting into the men, and the shooting frightened the horses so that they rushed upon the ridge and many horses were shot. The return fire was so strong that the Sioux had to retreat back over the hill again. I left my men there and told them to hold that position, and then I rushed around the hills and came up to the north end of the field near where the monument now stands. And I saw hundreds and hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around. The Indians dismounted and tied their horses in a bunch and got down into the coulees, shooting at the soldiers from all sides.
First part FFR based on reports of many dead horses there, and movements seem right for a retreat by warriors over the hill. [He is now looking at cemetery ridge] From the point that juts out just below where the monument stands about 30 of us got through the line, firing as we went and captured a lot of Custer's horses and drove them down to the river. The horses were so thirsty that the moment we reached the river, they just stood and drank and drank, and that gave us a chance to get off our horses and catch hold of the bridles. They were all loaded with shells and blankets and everything that the soldiers carried with them. Just then, I returned to my men and the soldiers were still on the hill fighting, with some of their horses near them.
I doubt he was here "about 30 of us" is not him but is the story of the suicide boys in my view. Hearsay on his part! [This part sounds like he was facing Keogh] After the soldiers got back from the hills, they made a stand all in a bunch. Another charge was made and they retreated along the line of the ridge, it looked like a stampede of Buffalo. On this retreat along the ridge, the soldiers were met by my band of Indians as well as other Sioux. The soldiers now broke the line and divided, some of them going down the eastern slope of the hill and some of them going down to the river, the others came back to where the final stand was made on the hill, but they were few in number then.
Agree, probably Keogh area. [Now he is around LSH] The soldiers then gathered in a group, where the monument now stands, I visited the monument today and confirmed my memory of it and then the soldiers and Indians were all mixed up. You could not tell one from the other. In this final charge, I took part and when the last soldier was killed, the smoke rolled up like a mountain above our heads, and the soldiers were piled one on top of another, dead, and here and there an Indian among the soldiers.
Yes LSH which would follow moving on from Keogh to the end at LSH. Interesting in the Red Hawk then goes on to say the last to fall were in the ravine below. Ian I have noted my thoughts above. Like all warrior accounts he intermingles real observations with hearsay. I think he actually moved from FFR and along Battle Ridge to LSH. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2017 22:00:24 GMT
I tend to agree with your views of these locations Mac, and the summary of intermingling his own observations together with what he had been told. Think you have his route down as well.
On one hand the intermingling of here say and he saw just frustrates the hell out of you, but on the other this guy is just trying to tell the complete story to whomever is listening.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2017 22:16:58 GMT
True! Interestingly in the second last quote referencing the flight along Battle Ridge he says "the others came back to where the final stand was made on the hill, but they were few in number then." Read more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/653/why-ford?page=7#ixzz4zZuPB3zlIt is a stretch perhaps but he says they "came back" to the final stand (LSH) implying that he knew they had come from LSH and now were going back. Obviously also suggesting that some did make it back. However, he does refer to this as a "stampede of buffalo" and I wonder; is this the first reference to this expression or does it indicate that he is using a term he has been told? Cheers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Nov 26, 2017 22:55:19 GMT
Second possibility "After the soldiers got back from the hills, they made a stand all in a bunch. Another charge was made and they retreated along the line of the ridge, it looked like a stampede of Buffalo. On this retreat along the ridge, the soldiers were met by my band of Indians as well as other Sioux. The soldiers now broke the line and divided, some of them going down the eastern slope of the hill and some of them going down to the river, the others came back to where the final stand was made on the hill, but they were few in number then." Read more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/653/why-ford?page=7#ixzz4za5ioJ7LThis could be FFR rather than Battle Ridge. The final stand would then be at Calhoun Hill. Just a thought. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2017 10:10:59 GMT
[Sounds like greasy grass ridge] We were all hidden along the ridge of hills. While Sitting Bull was telling this, I looked up and saw that the Cheyenne’s had made a circle around Custer on the west, north and east sides and that left a gap on the south side for us to fill. We then filled up the gap, and as we did so, we looked over to the Cheyenne side, and there was a woman among the Cheyenne’s who was nearest the soldiers trying to fight them. While Custer was all surrounded, there had been no firing from either side. Sounds more like an amalgamation with the last reference, "We filled the gap...", being LSH.[Calhoun Hill or FFR?] The Sioux then made a charge from the rear side, shooting into the men, and the shooting frightened the horses so that they rushed upon the ridge and many horses were shot. The return fire was so strong that the Sioux had to retreat back over the hill again. I left my men there and told them to hold that position, and then I rushed around the hills and came up to the north end of the field near where the monument now stands. And I saw hundreds and hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around. The Indians dismounted and tied their horses in a bunch and got down into the coulees, shooting at the soldiers from all sides.
First part FFR based on reports of many dead horses there, and movements seem right for a retreat by warriors over the hill. [He is now looking at cemetery ridge] From the point that juts out just below where the monument stands about 30 of us got through the line, firing as we went and captured a lot of Custer's horses and drove them down to the river. The horses were so thirsty that the moment we reached the river, they just stood and drank and drank, and that gave us a chance to get off our horses and catch hold of the bridles. They were all loaded with shells and blankets and everything that the soldiers carried with them. Just then, I returned to my men and the soldiers were still on the hill fighting, with some of their horses near them.
I doubt he was here "about 30 of us" is not him but is the story of the suicide boys in my view. Hearsay on his part! [This part sounds like he was facing Keogh] After the soldiers got back from the hills, they made a stand all in a bunch. Another charge was made and they retreated along the line of the ridge, it looked like a stampede of Buffalo. On this retreat along the ridge, the soldiers were met by my band of Indians as well as other Sioux. The soldiers now broke the line and divided, some of them going down the eastern slope of the hill and some of them going down to the river, the others came back to where the final stand was made on the hill, but they were few in number then.
Agree, probably Keogh area. [Now he is around LSH] The soldiers then gathered in a group, where the monument now stands, I visited the monument today and confirmed my memory of it and then the soldiers and Indians were all mixed up. You could not tell one from the other. In this final charge, I took part and when the last soldier was killed, the smoke rolled up like a mountain above our heads, and the soldiers were piled one on top of another, dead, and here and there an Indian among the soldiers.
Yes LSH which would follow moving on from Keogh to the end at LSH. Interesting in the Red Hawk then goes on to say the last to fall were in the ravine below. Ian I have noted my thoughts above. Like all warrior accounts he intermingles real observations with hearsay. I think he actually moved from FFR and along Battle Ridge to LSH. Cheers Mac. Sounds like I am getting better at this, you agreed with four out of the five The first one was confusing as he mentions a range of hills and Sitting Bull yadda yadda! But I suppose if they hemmed any survivors in from three sides and they filled the void in the forth, then it does sound like LSH.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2017 10:28:12 GMT
The soldiers now broke the line and divided, some of them going down the eastern slope of the hill and some of them going down to the river, the others came back to where the final stand was made on the hill, but they were few in number then.
Eastern slope; the Keogh cluster. Down to the river; Fred states in an article that four or five where killed on west battle ridge and we know of the seven or eight found along the ridge near Calhoun coulee. Others came back to where the final stand was made; well we know that at least ten made it to LSH from companies I,C&L.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 27, 2017 16:26:25 GMT
NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO. We do not KNOW that at least ten made it to LSH from Companies I,C,&L
WE ONLY KNOW THEY WERE FOUND ON LAST STAND HILL AND HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA HOW THEY GOT THERE,, WHY THEY WERE THERE, OR WHERE THEY CAME FROM.
So suggesting that these ten or so men made it to Last Stand Hill from the Calhoun/Keogh area is assuming a fact that is not in evidence.
How many times must we address the FACT that what some jackass assumes based upon what he sees, then writes it down in some book is speculation not fact. It is opinion not something carved in stone.
There is no one alive since 25 June 1876 who knows how these men came to be found on LSH, but I think the least likely of any reason one wishes to present is an escapee from C or L making it back that far, with anyone from I being remote but possible.
KNOW is a positive word meaning in this context beyond all doubt. Beyond all doubt is a finding of fact. Words have meaning.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 27, 2017 17:00:09 GMT
I go with Mac's second alternative, and he and I are both speculating.
I speculate that this herd of buffalo business started at F-F Ridge. We do KNOW that Company C broke, We do KNOW that the east side of F-F Ridge would lead one to Calhoun Hill where "A" stand was made. We also KNOW that there are five or six markers off F-F Ridge that ended up at the base of Greasy Grass Ridge, which from F-F Ridge could be considered by an observer as going down toward the river via Calhoun Coulee.
The "Key" words in that narrative are "After the soldiers got back from the hills". If you "got back" it is obvious that the prelude must be "gone to". Placing yourself with the Sioux - Where were these hills? You must assume "back from" eludes to a northerly direction. Surely they would not "come back" from the south. Cemetery and LSH were the two most prominent terrain features north of their position.
In that narrative the action combined with the terrain best fits what we know of the Company C action on F-F Ridge, not to the exclusion of anywhere else, but I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a better fit.
This narrative then fits quite nicely with both Red Hawk and JSIT. It remains though a nicely fitting narrative and that derived from it is far from indisputable fact.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 27, 2017 20:54:34 GMT
I think you are missing the point Chuck, the Indian account said that some ran to the river, so if you look at any marker map it will show markers for fallen soldiers on the west side of battle ridge.
You will notice that mac and I both share the same ideal on FFR, I said it was either and Mac said FFR, I knew it was one or the other.
Chuck, you sounding like DC now, he also disputed Indian accounts, we know that these accounts are far from accurate, but they are all we have and going by the JSIT narrative, have served us wll.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 27, 2017 21:54:51 GMT
I did not miss any point whatsoever.
I am also saying that this narrative sounds like F-F Ridge which Mac said "could be FFR rather than Battle Ridge" I agree with that.
As far as Indian tales of soldiers running to the river are concerned what I said was that FFR offered both aspects of the narrative, running to the river.and also running eastward. We KNOW that running eastward (presumably toward safety) is what some of Company C did (toward Calhoun Hill), and we know some markers are down in front of Greasy Grass Ridge, which is in Calhoun Coulee, WHICH LEADS TOWARD THE RIVER. FFR is the ONLY PLACE on the battlefield that meets both of these criteria.
Where in the name of God are you getting the notion that I do not believe Indian accounts per DC. DC was an obstinate idiot in that regard. Do I believe them all? Only a fool would, but I do believe many, if not most and if you will be so good as to re-read my last line in the post anove you will see that I believe this account, the Red Hawk account, and the JSIT account and state that they nicely fit together, meaning they compliment each other by each telling the part of the story that together make the whole.
NOW DO NOT MISS THIS POINT - Every Ridge is not Battle Ridge. Every mention of a ridge does not at all mean that the person making mention is speaking of Battle Ridge. The damned place is full of ridges and to an Indian a ridge is a ridge is a ridge. Hell Battle Ridge was not even one ridge at the time of the battle. It was at least two ridges or perhaps better said two ridges and a hill top. There were two distinct gaps existing then in what we now call battle ridge.
DON'T MISS THIS ONE EITHER The Red Hawk account had three "divisions" (presumably companies) coming south along a ridge line. That ridge line completely fits the description of Battle Ridge, but Battle Ridge as a direction of travel, not as a place they all fought. He goes on to say that each of these companies collapsed upon themselves in due time. The markers and artifacts suggest that Company C collapsed upon Company L, then the remnants of C and L, in turn collapsed upon Company I. Then you insert this latest narrative, which of itself is inconsequential, but when taken together with Red Hawk, seems to give us more detail about the initial collapse of Company C, and meshes with what we already know about their demise. Where at any other place on that battlefield do you know of people running off of any ridge at the same time, some toward the river, and the others to the east. Name one, other than what we see that remains of the fight on FFR.
READ ALSO THE REST OF THIS GUY'S STORY - He is not talking about closing in on a little band atop LSH. He is talking about how the Cheyenne and the Sioux closed in on the entire battalion, throughout the entire battle space, Cheyenne from the north and the Sioux from the south and west. He is trying to give us a complete story here as he knew it to be. Some he participated in, some he may have witnessed from afar, and some he heard stories of. When it is broken apart, as you did Ian into segments that complete story and the train and trace of that story is lost.
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