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Post by yanmacca on Nov 20, 2017 19:31:57 GMT
Yan Thank you for the map!!! It helps a non military veteran understand all the maneuvers discussed as possibilities of Custer’s travel. Regards Dave No problem Dave and thanks! But you need no help from me, as you do very well as it is.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 20, 2017 20:46:14 GMT
Tom, where is the Realbird Grandstand on this image. Ian, enlarge your photo and look the red, white, red, white semi circle with the thin brown strip to it's right. Those are all of the seats. Best view is from the thin brown section.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2017 21:13:54 GMT
Both are much too confined for a battalion sized opposed crossing. The operative word is opposed, as you always expect your crossings to be opposed.
I say again, the only crossing point that is suitable for a doctrinal battalion sized opposed river crossing is Ford D, and that includes Ford A.
All the others could be used for an unopposed crossing, when you know the area is clear of opposition, A being the best followed by B and C in that order.
You have already used A. B and C are virtually in the camp site. That leaves D as the only viable option available.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2017 11:52:30 GMT
Tom, you can follow an old track which takes you right across the river and through those seats.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 21, 2017 15:38:05 GMT
Tom, where is the Realbird Grandstand on this image. You can see the grandstands in the picture a little left of center.
Well if I continued reading I would have found Tom's comment but if I do that I sometimes forget to go back.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2017 15:46:35 GMT
Steve, looking at those images, you can see how wide and flat the eastern bank is, which would allow for a large formation to cross. It is not surprising that some people think that this was an obvious choice for Custer to initiate a crossing in force, but I don't think that any major cavalry force made it to this area, other wise we would have evidence of a large fire fight here as Custer wouldn't have yielded this area without making a fist of it.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 21, 2017 19:31:40 GMT
Look again Ian. Look where you are pinched by the river and the high ground on that east bank, before you can deploy.
Then look at the grandstand and replace it with the built up congested area that was there at the time of the battle, that was full of hostiles at the time
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2017 19:45:41 GMT
Do you think that the ground west of the river would be full of tepees and these would be located right to the river bank? Would he find this too claustrophobic for a mounted attack? I guess crossing a river would be bad enough, but having no room to deploy when they reached the other side, may have put him off the idea and that is why he went north to cross unopposed, but that would rule out the idea that he was chasing folks who are trying to escape.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 21, 2017 19:59:20 GMT
Human beings are by nature lazy Ian. If you are camping by a river, and that river is the source of your water and the water for your stock, the first choice would be to camp by it, unless there is a flood or some other natural reason to prevent it. There is no such reason to my knowledge.
There may have been lodgings in that flat ground to the east. I just don't know. Regardless that pinched area between the high ground and the river would preclude you using it as access unless you wanted enfilading fire from the west bank to tear your flanks to shreds if you tried to transit the area.
Crossing is one thing. Crossing a military force under fire is completely another. The easy road only leads to death ground.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 21, 2017 20:29:31 GMT
Flank fire could have done him at ford D, the left hand units which where close to the river, would be open to flank fire. All in all, something would have caused any pull back.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Nov 22, 2017 12:19:23 GMT
Flank fire could have done him at ford D, the left hand units which where close to the river, would be open to flank fire. All in all, something would have caused any pull back. Ian you could move from CR to the junction of BRE under cover unless that covering ridge is occupied by Indians.
What we don't know is where all the Indians were located since we don't have all of their accounts. Something went terribly wrong and force Custer to stop and finally realize he had to retrograde. So at best we a few accounts taken by persons at a specific location and time certain.
What we don't know is how all the Indians crossed the river and engaged Custer's 5 companies. That gap visible from CR could have lots of Indians coming out of it just as Custer moves off CR.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 23, 2017 20:28:04 GMT
Steve, if we look at the terrain around ford D, we can try to ascertain just what the bank of the river was like around that time. If we look now and search out the old course, you can see how heavily wooded the river course was back then. It is easy to see a nice flat and open ford with the road and railway making it so, but just check back and trace the river back as far as ford A and even now you can see how trees lined its banks.
This ford may have not been as inviting as Custer expected and if you add a few hundred armed Indians, it would look even less so. So we could be looking at a case of "lets turn back and try again further back"
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Post by quincannon on Nov 23, 2017 20:40:15 GMT
Where Ian would you suppose trees are most likely to grow on the American prairie?
Where I live, is not all that much different from eastern Montana, and you can rest assure here if you want to find water you look for the trees.
I would expect then that there would be trees in any place the water flowed. I suspect Custer would not expect any ford to be devoid of trees, so if you have everything else you need, a wide area to deploy and relatively flat ground to deploy on, you accept potential aversaries in any tree line as the cost of doing business.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 24, 2017 10:40:24 GMT
Chuck, we have been debating different stuff regarding fords and things for "yonks" now, and no matter what I say about the various fording places available to GAC, we have some issues regarding there usefulness as a military crossing point. Please give me some credit, I have been studying this river bank for years and have a good idea where to find certain vegetation, so I am not a complete rock head and can read the lie of the land and have very good map skills. I know I haven't visited the battle site or met you face to face, but if we did ever meet up on that location, then I would not be out of my depth. But if you think that a formation of 200 cavalry would try and force a crossing through a tree line, which would not only break up their formation, but in some places funnel them through small avenues, then fair enough. As I said earlier, we have to try and look at this river without the major road work done at the supposed fording place and going on what the rest of the river looks like today, I would think that it was tree lined. Plus if you look at the old river loop it will show how bad this are could have been.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 24, 2017 16:12:01 GMT
Would you attack it now?
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