mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Nov 19, 2017 23:26:00 GMT
Fred Wagner has the excursion to Ford B as a full strength reconnaissance to view the degree and direction of flight from the village. This is a new twist but is, in my view, a long stretch made to conform to the Ford B story. This from AZ is a great summary of how the action really evolved. "The movement north route is easy to determine when viewed from higher ground before crossing MTC since Battle Ridge is the only terrain feature that has the north-south corridor. It's the same reason they built the current road on NPS land. I believe that Custer may have believed all Indians responded to Reno. I think the number of Indians was underestimated which would influence Custer's decision making. When Custer went past LSH at some point he realized there were more Indians willing to fight. That led to the retrograde back which ended with the five companies fixed and destroyed. " Read more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/post/new/653#ixzz4yvHuslF7Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2017 0:07:08 GMT
Exactly so Mac.
Wagner does not believe Custer attacked at Ford B. He does believe that the three companies in the general Calhoun Hill area were left there by Custer though. So if you do not believe the former, but do believe the latter, you must conjure up a reason for that latter, so it must have been going to Ford B. He knows that Custer would never attack with anything but his entire force, so it must have been a reconnaissance.
Good tactics, and proper procedure though would say if you want that information, without tipping your hand, you get it by stealth, not brute force.
So Wagner, like all the rest before him is hung up on the mutually exclusives of this battle, 1) If you desire success at D don't go near B with a ten foot pole, 2) If you don't go to B there is no need for posting 60 percent of your combat power on Calhoun Hill.
I am also starting to think that the probable line of deployment (PLD) was further south than I had thought Mac. Consider the PLD being back around the midpoint of Battle Ridge or at LSH and from there the five companies spread out in an attack formation resembling the five fingers on your hand. Comments??
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Nov 20, 2017 1:49:03 GMT
I prefer LSH rather than further south. Thinking of accounts of the approach (including those wrongly attributed to Ford B), I wonder if it could be two companies down between CR and BRE (the dry watercourse area) and 3 companies as a reserve on BRE. The large reserve perhaps indicating uncertainty about the strength of the resistance. There is out there the theory that the archaeology reflects two companies going in a loop off BRE and back up CR. This could reflect the action of the reserve force on BRE and the down and back up move of two companies at the LSH end??? Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2017 2:38:27 GMT
What would be wrong with using Cemetery Ravine as one of the approach routes after they deployed in an attack formation with the others being down the trace of the old entrance road, another down the present road, and still another on the back side of BRE and turning west along the highway trace.
He would want to be in line or be in line shortly as he exposed himself.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Nov 20, 2017 10:42:07 GMT
Personally I would rule out the ravines that lead off cemetery hill [red] as an approach route. If we are sticking with the theory that Custer moved north with all five, then Crazy Horse Ravine is the most likely option as it leads directly to the ford D flats and offers cover too, as I am to believe that the column used battle ridge as cover and then CH-R. I still think that the emphasis would be about speed of march and beating the Indians to the punch, so getting to point in which they could defeat their enemy was paramount and to engage what ever they rode so far north for. I think if we lose the fact that Custer was intent to finish this job sooner rather than later instead of dilly dallying, would put our theory in jeopardy. Here is a map showing the ravines which he would have encountered in his march, I have reservations about the two outer routes [green] as they would take him too far north, but I suppose that we cannot rule these out.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Nov 20, 2017 11:11:28 GMT
Thanks for the map Ian! If you read QC again then the yellow and green are the sort of approaches he is suggesting. He is using the notion that the roads represent preferred paths through the terrain and I think that works quite well here. The green also cover the northern field of the archaeological finds and the yellow the southern field. I am interested in what AZ and Tom have to say. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Nov 20, 2017 11:24:32 GMT
Ok Mac, lets wait on our resident explorers [AZ & Tom]
I put the red lines showing the ravines running off cemetery because Chuck mentioned cemetery ravine.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 20, 2017 11:38:45 GMT
Ian, the yellow line is close to where we walked last June and is close to CH Ravine. The first green line would give GAC stealth longer.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Nov 20, 2017 14:48:19 GMT
I agree with Tom. If you look at the old river channel and the yellow line then right where the arrow is located it is close to the Kellogg marker in the photo. You can also see the drainage outside the blue channel designation and that leads to BRE and the clearly visible old entrance road.
Jose whom I have a lot of respect for believes Custer went to Ford C. I am not sure what everyone calls Ford C. He states the Gerard talked about Ford C. I think he believes it to be at the junction of Deep Ravine and the river.
I want to look at the fords between B and the highway in 2018.
There is nothing good about Ford B in my opinion so I know it is factor for me not to accept it. The Real Bird crossing is much better but it still a defile to some degree. The extent of the village is a key factor and Custer would have observed that when making a choice of route.
What I am sure of is that we have a great plan with Custer moving north of LSH and it makes sense. The problem is that Custer was destroyed so what plan was he using? If you look at one of Donahue's maps he has several approaches that the Custer companies could use. So from CR it would be easy to travel to wherever Ford C is located and still move out BRE. The key for me is that Gall has soldiers on CR firing in two directions in pictures. In one toward LSH and the other BRE.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2017 17:15:04 GMT
Your own General Sir John Moore Ian, one of the Patron Saints of Light Infantry.
When asked where to place the sidewalks for the new barracks under construction remarked - "Look at where the soldiers walk and place them there"
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Nov 20, 2017 17:54:40 GMT
Yan Thank you for the map!!! It helps a non military veteran understand all the maneuvers discussed as possibilities of Custer’s travel. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Nov 20, 2017 18:14:15 GMT
Still like that route down Cemetery Ravine for a company sized unit, especially so if Custer is aware of the Ford(s) at C, then crossing the western slope of Cemetery Ridge low down.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 20, 2017 18:47:31 GMT
The crossing across from the Real Bird grandstands would make a great location to form for an attack and execute it, Caveat would be if it was as clear then as it is now. It is not far north of B. Could it be C? In June it was about waist deep.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Nov 20, 2017 19:29:38 GMT
Deep ravine could be used as a crossing point, but only offers a narrow frontage, but it has a wide area of river bank to deploy, but still a little narrow.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Nov 20, 2017 19:30:40 GMT
Tom, where is the Realbird Grandstand on this image.
|
|