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Post by dgfred on Jan 17, 2017 1:50:49 GMT
I realize the "if" factor is like candy and nuts but would Nathan Bedford Forsset have fought differently at the LBH? Just curious as he was a non-traditional thinker to say the least. Regards Dave I am thinking the entire unit hits the village right about/between where the pony herd was located. Women and children don't escape in high numbers and most of the warriors can't get to their ponies. Still going to be a nasty fight but surprise, force, firepower and confusion might turn the tide. Good thoughts to think about
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2017 2:02:39 GMT
OK you stepped in it, so give me exactly how you would do it, including the route of your axis of advance. What is your timing? What is your task organization? What formations would you use? What is Plan B if Plan A does not work?
Your point is valid. You intend to hit the villages with everything you have, a fist instead of extended fingers, but saying is one thing, planning out exactly how to do it, while achieving the essential ingredient of surprise is another. What would you do with the pack train? How would you secure it?
Welcome to the board. The ball is in your court.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 17, 2017 2:16:34 GMT
I thought we were discussing Forrest... not me. Haha. Me? I wouldn't attack at all (that day). But if I had too with Custer's force I would MAYBE (probably should think more): Small holding force on the ridges before the Reno/Benteen End position... protecting the pack train. Maybe one company or two. The rest are on the attack. Reno's force hits the same area as the did for the sake of argument. Benteen on his left, Custer as the shock force still further to the left (south). I think ponies scattered somewhat, women and children running northward, warriors trying to protect them and fight back. I might be a bit worried with Reno getting flanked on the hills but would hope moving on the village would weaken that factor quite a lot. If kids and women are being slaughtered... I don't think they would be concerned/organized enough for a true flank movement. I sometimes think that Terry thought maybe Custer would run all the Indians northward right into his hands. He would be the 'hero'. He probably never considered Custer would get mostly wiped out and the Indians would not really be on the run so much.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2017 2:49:45 GMT
So you really don't have a plan. I did not think so. That's OK though for the tactical problem is far more complicated than it looks at first glance. Think about it. Get a map, a good one. Overlay on it the Indian positions, then look at multiple axis of advance. Your idea of separating the village from its wealth and mobility, the horses, is a good one. Getting there is far harder than saying it though. Figure it out.
I think peace should reign for all mankind and I have been working on that plan for 74 years, so don't get discouraged if your lunch is handed to you several times, before you come up with one of about three adequate solutions.
The purpose of this board is to encourage the participants to think through problems, not just offer opinions.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jan 17, 2017 12:44:32 GMT
Chuck,
Lighten up. Opinion is important, especially informed opinion. I happen to more or less agree with dgfred's theory. I have heard you espouse the same, applying and amassing the fire power from the south. As in doing so you are really increasing your potential for success and support. You also have an avenue if fall back is required and some seriously high ground to fall back to and defend about 1.5 miles back.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 17, 2017 13:54:28 GMT
I have added my ideas behind this valley attack many times, and I still amend them every time I look at it. But using Reno as a pivot, Custer could have entered the Frey to Reno’s left and Benteen swinging around in a left hook to Custer’s left, this would out flank the Indian defense line and hopefully pin them back to the river and bluffs.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 17, 2017 15:57:49 GMT
Nice... I may change my avatar to that pic.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 17, 2017 16:01:31 GMT
So you really don't have a plan. I did not think so. That's OK though for the tactical problem is far more complicated than it looks at first glance. Think about it. Get a map, a good one. Overlay on it the Indian positions, then look at multiple axis of advance. Your idea of separating the village from its wealth and mobility, the horses, is a good one. Getting there is far harder than saying it though. Figure it out. I think peace should reign for all mankind and I have been working on that plan for 74 years, so don't get discouraged if your lunch is handed to you several times, before you come up with one of about three adequate solutions. The purpose of this board is to encourage the participants to think through problems, not just offer opinions. Really? 'Get a good map'? Double really? 'Figure it out'... I am trying. What is your 74-year plan? You may have posted it earlier somewhere... but I am only 52.
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Post by Beth on Jan 17, 2017 16:30:25 GMT
So you really don't have a plan. I did not think so. That's OK though for the tactical problem is far more complicated than it looks at first glance. Think about it. Get a map, a good one. Overlay on it the Indian positions, then look at multiple axis of advance. Your idea of separating the village from its wealth and mobility, the horses, is a good one. Getting there is far harder than saying it though. Figure it out. I think peace should reign for all mankind and I have been working on that plan for 74 years, so don't get discouraged if your lunch is handed to you several times, before you come up with one of about three adequate solutions. The purpose of this board is to encourage the participants to think through problems, not just offer opinions. Really? 'Get a good map'? Double really? 'Figure it out'... I am trying. What is your 74-year plan? You may have posted it earlier somewhere... but I am only 52. Ah crap, we have a young whipper snapper here. Seriously good maps are very helpful here though we do have Ian and his ability to work magic on a map. I tend to refer a lot to google's map of the area. I'm sure others have different recommendations. One question that is also helpful for the rest of us know is have you ever visited the battlefield? It helps to know if you are familiar with the area. Do you guys want me to move this discussion into it's own thread and out of the civil war. A discussion of 'what would you do" would be interesting especially with the the retired military people we have on this board who can help hone the rest of our reasoning skills. It doesn't deserve to get lost in the wrong place.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 17, 2017 16:43:15 GMT
Beth, you could move them to the "Reno needed more men" thread if you like, as that is not that far off what we have been discussing.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2017 16:44:15 GMT
Light as a feather Tom. See my response to this on To Ford D. I think that will answer your questions.
Ian's scheme of maneuver is right on the money. It needs one more thing to make it work, but the bulk of the come from the south solution is laid out before you.
My 74 year plan is based upon hope and desire alone, and of course that is the point. Desire and hope are just that desire and hope and no plan at all. You cannot take desire and hope alone into battle and expect to win. You must flesh out hope and desire into something workable.
Yes move it, I think that would be best to stimulate discussion on a subject that should be revisited periodically as long as this board exists.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 17, 2017 17:04:31 GMT
Beth. Have not been to the battlefield but planning on going maybe even this June. My main interest are with maps/terrain/unit composition/ and hypotheticals (what ifs) so yes... I have studied the maps/terrain of the battle quite a lot. I also like the panoramic videos. The battles I have looked at the most are LBH, Stalingrad, Iwo Jima, Battle of the Bulge, Crete, Antietem, Gettysburg and in my home state- Bentonville.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 17, 2017 17:04:52 GMT
I will start the ball rolling, now first off any attack plan up this valley must have a formation, so we can either have a three battalion attack, with a mobile reserve and an area for the pack train to set up or four battalion attack with no reserve and an area for the packs.
I would guess that Custer would want to lead a battalion, but I do recall that this was frowned upon because he should be leading and controlling the whole regiment.
So if Custer stays with the HQ group and we go for a three battalion attack, then we could have Benteen, French and Reno leading the battalions with McDougal leading the reserve.
Each battalion would be three companies strong and the pack train still retaining their trooper packers.
Now each of these battalions would contain around 150 men each, which is still quite small for a job of this size, but you have to fight with what you have got and beat whatever there is in front of you.
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Post by Beth on Jan 17, 2017 17:27:19 GMT
Beth . Have not been to the battlefield but planning on going maybe even this June. My main interest are with maps/terrain/unit composition/ and hypotheticals (what ifs) so yes... I have studied the maps/terrain of the battle quite a lot. I also like the panoramic videos. The battles I have looked at the most are LBH, Stalingrad, Iwo Jima, Battle of the Bulge, Crete, Antietem, Gettysburg and in my home state- Bentonville. Dang-now we are going to have both you and Dave talking about all sorts of southern dining...delights.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2017 17:30:03 GMT
My plan would be to do a thorough reconnaissance on the 24 and 25 and hit an hour after first light on the 26 from the north east, driving a wedge between the horse herd and the village, depriving them of the bulk of their transportation assets. The unconventional part of this plan is the fact that it does not meet campaign objectives of preventing a move into the Big Horn Mountains, BUT it does deprive them from the transportation to do so. I feel it is worth the risk. The axis of advance here would generally follow Highway 212 as it comes from Busby.
Now if you are stuck with discussing what should have been done given Custer's historical axis of approach, over the divide and into the valley. Ian's plan as outlined in both his map and written presentation is a decent scheme of maneuver. It would work with the addition of some action taken against the horses. If you have ever lived out here you know the danger of prairie fire. That is the tact I would use, and it would only take a small group of men to carry it off. The fire would panic the horses driving them both away from and into the village to the point where they would do a lot of your destruction for you. You are in effect using the fire as a combat multiplier to make up at least partially for your deficiency in numbers.
Follow that with a three battalion (four companies each) attack in echelon down the valley. The echelon formation would preclude you keeping a dedicated reserve. The least engaged would be your reserve for each phase of that attack. You would lead off such an attack by attempting to draw out the Indians from the south end of the village into a screen by exposing only one of your three assaulting battalions initially, basically following what Reno did in the historical model. Units moving in echelon would hit any attempt to flank that first battalion in their own flank in sequence. By that time the Indians on the firing line have become aware of the fire raging in the right rear. You are messing with their minds. Do they continue to fight? Do they attempt to get back into the village to see to their people? Do they try to do both? Can they do both? Regardless of what they do you relentlessly fight them until their flight turns to flight. Whatever you do, you do not go into that village. Doing that gives them the advantage back in their court.
The packs should be stashed just outside the immediate battle space, and the detailed pack attendees returned to their units for battle. You do not diminish 18 to 20 percent of your combat power on the eve of battle.
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