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Post by dgfred on Jan 19, 2017 15:08:55 GMT
By changed do you mean a bit of fine tuning or plan A won't work so we will go with B? I can see how Custer made a mistake by not keeping his officers informed of the situation-it speaks of distrust of his officer's ability or of fear of his own shortcomings but how would another officer have handled having his regiment spread out over such distance? Or is the answer another officer wouldn't have gotten himself into that position? Beth, if you remember, Benteen asked Custer if perhaps they shouldn't keep the regiment together, when Custer sent him on the left scout. He realized that keeping combat power all together was going to be the right move, but Custer informed him "you have your orders". I doubt Benteen would have done the same things Custer did, given that he was in command instead of Custer. I also don't think Reno would have made the same decisions as Custer. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if 1500 warriors, by estimate, are the target, and you only have 600, that you are outnumbered almost 3 to 1, therefore, splitting your combat power only makes those odds worse. I also think Reno or Benteen, or any of the other senior captains, for that matter, would have reconned the battle space on the 25th, and would not have cut short the scout to the headwaters, let alone rushed to the attack on the 25th. It seems everyone had a pretty good idea of what should be done and it was the opposite of what Custer actually did. Benteen asked Reno hesitated Scouts petrified Horses/men tired What Custer say... CHARGE!
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 19, 2017 16:35:33 GMT
Good afternoon Greg; I would say that Benteen wasn’t happy at being detached but he did his duty, I don’t think Reno had any choice but to stop his battalion when he did, as there was a ditch that ran right across his front and this soon filled up with Indians, this became a fortified buffer zone between the army and the village and this buffer zone soon got the idea that they could out flank the soldiers and as their numbers grew they took the fight to the soldiers.
Most of the Indian scouts had their eyes on capturing Sioux ponies then fighting. Not to say that these scouts were not brave, just look how they served Crook.
I also don’t think that Custer charged anything and his movement started off as a march to reach the point of attack and he then manoeuvred out of danger, only to find the route back blocked
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Post by quincannon on Jan 19, 2017 18:54:17 GMT
Agree.
Benteen had the good sense to say this was not a good idea, but obeyed his orders.
Reno went in as directed, and did the best he could under the circumstances and did not stop, but was stopped.
The only ones that had any appreciation of what lay ahead were the scouts, and if they were not crap your pants scared they weren't human. They were going to steal a few horses, pick off any stray warrior that came their way, and generally do what anyone with any sense does in that situation, fight if they have to and stay the hell out of the way if they could.
Custer let his battle get out of hand, by trying to be all too fancy at a level where fancy tactics leads to a marble garden. He did little and accomplished nothing.
Men fight in the condition they are when the fight presents itself. Tired is not a factor. Horses were ill managed, and that is the commander's fault.
There is absolutely no one here that is to blame, and must bear the responsibility for defeat but George Custer.
Some of your comments Greg, lead me to believe that you have previously matriculated at Queen's Staff College. Get over it. Nun's know more about fornication than the person who runs that undistinguished institution knows about battle.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 19, 2017 20:51:18 GMT
What is matriculated? I am not allowed by my wife to do that kind of stuff.
I blame nobody but Custer... all the way thru to the end. I feel sorry for Reno and Benteen. I am most drawn to Keough for some reason. If anyone thought otherwise maybe I wasn't expressing myself very well.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 19, 2017 21:33:30 GMT
Matriculated: Attended school at, studied under, skipped class, went on panty raids.
Fornication: My wife does not allow me to do that stuff either.
The trick is not to like anyone. Evaluate them only on their performance. Always remember they like everyone else have good and bad days. Some days they are on top of their game, other days they would have been better off staying in bed.
Keogh had a nice horse.
The Queen's Staff College is the home of the ---- We Adore Custer, And Hate The Dirty Bastards That Done Him Wrong Society. The self appointed head master is a piece of work, that you would just as soon avoid in the same manner you would avoid a pit bull with rabies.
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Post by Beth on Jan 19, 2017 21:44:24 GMT
Beth, I think I did try to simulate how the bighorn river ran from 1876, but I also drew in the course today, which was wrong, but the emphasis was on the smaller creeks and ditches which ran down the left hand side. I also failed to add that ditch or ravine which the Indians occupied to block Reno and if I am right then this obstacle would be located across that natural funnel between the loop and the creek on the left. If I had added that obstacle to the map, you would see that this village was ringed by natural defenses, which may not have stopped an infantry assault, but they would break up a cavalry charge. Makes you think why the Indians choose this place, very clever choice. I have always felt that the village location was not accidental. I am unsure though if it was traditional spot used over time or just for that particular summer. It has a good supply of food, grazing, and fresh water, an enemy has limited approaches and you can set up watches on the bluff that would have a good view of any enemy approaching from a distance. I wonder if the other camps along the Rosebud are similar. To me, at least, it makes sense that nomadic people traveling around with known enemies in the area would chose a campsite carefully.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 19, 2017 21:54:31 GMT
It is interesting to look at the different locations as the villages moved in front of the Army forces. Now... let me find that map I think the Sioux Wars Atlas is the place I saw the moves.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 19, 2017 22:12:32 GMT
Yep... the Atlas (part 2)
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Post by Beth on Jan 19, 2017 22:46:59 GMT
Yep... the Atlas (part 2) Are you going to hint and not share a link?
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Post by Beth on Jan 19, 2017 23:04:00 GMT
Ian, this is what I meant about the oxbows, each one would also be a barrier that would slow down movement or have to be moved around. BTW if you want to really appreciate the job Ian does with those maps, just try doing one.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 20, 2017 0:55:21 GMT
Yep... the Atlas (part 2) Are you going to hint and not share a link? I can link the Atlas but I can not link the individual picture. Maybe someone with some computer sense might can do it.
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Post by Beth on Jan 20, 2017 1:29:30 GMT
link to the atlas and give the page number. I can see later if I can link to the exact page.
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Post by yanmacca on Jan 20, 2017 13:16:04 GMT
Now I get you Beth, yes you are right, they would pose a threat, I am sure that there may be a few small creeks running across the valley floor too.
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Post by dgfred on Jan 20, 2017 16:27:15 GMT
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Post by Beth on Jan 20, 2017 21:33:00 GMT
Thanks Greg, I appreciate that. I knew there were links to the atlas *somewhere* but it doesn't hurt to put a new link in when we are discussion it.
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