|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 10, 2016 9:16:59 GMT
We can also look again at what the crow scout’s said (White-Man-Runs-Him, Goes Ahead and Hairy Moccasin), as the three of these men never changed their story, and all of them say that Custer rode over sharpshooter ridge and then down Cedar coulee, or as they called it “south coulee” They also mention arriving with Custer at the base of a hill south of MTC and they all stopped on this point (or bend as they saw it) and Custer sent them back, later this hill was known as “Weir Ridge”.
Now Curly is a different cat and we have to treat what he says in the same way as Martini as both change their stories, but here is what he said about the move to MTC and this does corresponded to everything we have read about this move;
Custer and his brother went to the right of us as we were standing on the hill. Custer turned around as he reached the top of the ridge and waved his hat, and his men at the bottom of the hill waved their hats and shouted. Custer kept going on the ridge and the men followed him. Custer's men were about 100 yards ahead of us. We scouts followed Custer, we galloped our horses and moved fast after Custer and his men. Custer went to a point on the ridge and then turned to the right and followed a coulee down in a northerly direction.
Interestingly enough we do get conflicting views, now Curly said that he, two officers and Bouyer rode to a high point that overlooks the little bighorn valley to see what was going on. We could see dust rising everywhere down the valley. None of us dismounted. Custer made a brief survey of the situation and rode back to his command. He did not ask Bouyer or me about the country.
But this is different to what the three other crow said, they said that Custer never went to Weir point and for that matter neither did they, but they did stop at some place to witness the Reno fight, Hmmm..riders on the bluffs spotted in the valley?
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 10, 2016 18:47:53 GMT
It seems to me that if Custer was standing at the top of the ridge, waving his hat and shouting, he wasn't that concern about being undetected.
|
|
dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
|
Post by dave on Sept 10, 2016 18:54:16 GMT
Beth That is a good point and remember it was supposed to be very dry and dusty that day so movement would surely be seen, would it not? Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 10, 2016 18:55:56 GMT
Thanks Beth, you make a good point there, as it makes looking this stuff up and then writing the post worth it.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 10, 2016 19:11:13 GMT
Beth That is a good point and remember it was supposed to be very dry and dusty that day so movement would surely be seen, would it not? Regards Dave Good lord yes! Anyone who has ever driven on gravel roads knows that the dust is highly visible.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Sept 10, 2016 21:00:20 GMT
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 11, 2016 17:05:27 GMT
Steve when you say to and south of Reno creek, can you be a bit more specific? On the current map in my Atlas of Montana. Reno Creek/Ash Creek is draining into the LBH is called its identified as Reno Creek. On the same map there is an Ash Creek just north of Davis Creek that drains toward the Rosebud. If you rode a horse up the Rosebud draining Ash Creek and reached the drainage dividing summit and then road down the other side you would be riding down Reno Creek. So at least for that map calling Reno Creek Ash Creek would mean you could ride up Ash Creek from the Rosebud side and then down Ash Creek on the LBH side. That seems confusing to me and why I like to stick to Reno Creek.
This area is on the Miller Ranch private property I believe. I had a good visit with Putt Thompson and Dave Miller at the Custer Battlefield Trading Post. I left for the metal detecting class early so I could see things and visit friends. Donahue and Adelson had already left for the year. Had a good visit with Chip and Sandy Watts and we are trying to put together a site survey in the future.
Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 11, 2016 18:13:13 GMT
Steve, when you are unpacked and rested, please have a look at the map I created and give me some feedback on the places were Martini and Kanipe were sent back and the location of were Thompson's horse gave out, then I can add any changes and that will give us a map to use as a basis to track Custer’s route to battle ridge.
Remember Jag? I still have old e-mails off him from way back and one of the things that he was adamant on was the Benteen followed Custer’s trail and not Reno’s, he also mentioned that he believed that Custer and Benteen watered their horses at the same place and that Martini virtually says this when he gave evidence at the RCOI.
Jag said that Custer never went to the morass because that would have made him back track, so the morass that Benteen used was different to the one that historians say he used, and this was near to where Custer also watered before moving over the bluffs. Apparently this morass area may have dried out and could be no longer visible.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 11, 2016 19:00:06 GMT
I think the morass that Tom and I are familiar with is near SFRC and that if Benteen came out of Noname that he could have run into it. At that point I would think Reno was on that side of the Reno Creek drainage and Custer was on the other side.
So I don't think Custer would have crossed the drainage to go to a morass that would take time to water a few horses at a time.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 12, 2016 9:52:08 GMT
Steve, I think that Jag may have thought that with Martini meeting Benteen at a location previously used by Custer, that Benteen had followed Custer's trail, here is that segment again were Martini gives his account at the RCOI;
On-going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 300 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.
I think the emphasis is on where we watered our horses, if Custer had watered at this point then Benteen must have been following Custer's trail to reach this position. I am a little puzzled about some of the content of Martini's account, do you notice he say's Then I went on to the edge of the stream and saw Benteen at the creek where we watered our horses.
Does that mean that there is a stream and a creek virtually next to each other? or are they one and the same.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 12, 2016 11:12:49 GMT
I found this an enjoyable read, it also has little twists on which way Custer rode and the notion that he simply road over the top of Weir point. If you open up the pictures, it gives you a great view of the area (if you look closely enough you may see someone who looks very much like AZ (Steve), but spend a little time reading the page as Donahue explains what he thought happened here. link
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 12, 2016 11:14:28 GMT
Donahue also mentions that the stream Custer used to water his horses has now dried up, probably due to blasting work done in the area.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 12, 2016 11:21:05 GMT
A lot depends on your perspective on any given day. I am not sure of the distinction of stream and creek in the Reno Creek drainage as used by Martin. In some years there is no water in Reno Creek. In general I think a creek is smaller than a stream which is smaller than a river.
Not sure if Martin was attempting to distinguish between NFRC and Reno Creek.
Regards
Steve
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Sept 12, 2016 11:25:39 GMT
Here is Reno Creek when it is raining.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Sept 12, 2016 11:41:43 GMT
It is interesting though and if Reno had not been forced back, then Benteen may have followed Custer's trail right to the end.
Steve I bet those folks in that shot got one hell of a soaking and were looking forward to getting under cover and drying off.
Tom you need to teach us that trick of sneaking in through the back door (aka Montrose), I wouldn't use it here of course because we need to show that we all log on, but I would certainly use it on the black board.
|
|