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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2016 3:34:08 GMT
FRESH NEWS - Hot of the Press.
Buckingham Palace announced late today that a certain Ian, living in Widnes, has been elevated to both knighthood, and the peerage, and shall now and henceforth be known to all, as Sir Ian, Duke of Widnes, and inducted into that ancient and honorable order of knights, Knights of the Prairie Waterhole (KPW), and shall hold the lifetime office of Knight of the Noble Map Case.
It seems that the Garter and Bath were full up and waiting for the old farts to die off.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 7, 2016 9:17:07 GMT
Hey I wonder if I can get a street named after me here in Widnes, I recall reading an article from over a hundred years ago that the Mayor of Widnes wanted to name a new lane after Queen Victoria, it led to a mews and they wanted to call Victoria Mews, but the Queen said that she didn't mind having a building, a bridge or a road named after her, be she defiantly was not a Mews.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 7, 2016 9:42:16 GMT
Anyway enough of these frolics. Here are some accounts of what men saw either just before the crossed at ford A of when forming up on the far bank.
Private Pigford: claimed to have saw Custer waving his hat. Private Petring: claimed to have saw the same thing along with a few others from his company. Private O’Neil: claimed he saw Custer and his whole command on the bluffs across the river, over to the east, at a point which he would think was about where Reno afterward fortified, or perhaps a little south of this. Custer's command was then going at a trot. Corporal Roy: Custer could be seen on hills to our right. Capt. Moylan: Custer’s men were seen on the bluffs near Reno hill.
Now these accounts are not worth the paper they were written on, but if we are taking note of what the Indians are saying then we have to include what these men have said. But we could dismiss all accounts other that JSIT, as his contains information from a straight talking relative, given on site with locations added.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 7, 2016 10:48:07 GMT
Here is the new location map, I am not sure about the Thompson position though.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Sept 7, 2016 12:11:46 GMT
One new thing to add. The person who originally said Custer went down Cedar Coulee was ...wait for it...Curly! Nuff said! Martini it seems simply agreed and I am tempted to say, he would wouldn't he. Oh..I did say it. Always yield to temptation. Ian I think perhaps Martini was not that far advanced when he left. Seek wiser counsel than mine, but he seems to get closer to MTC the older he gets. Cheers
PS I am not anti Cedar Coulee as a route just wondering about the evidence. In the end it is not that important, as we know from the archaeology where he went next.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 7, 2016 12:32:01 GMT
Mac, I think that Martini said this;
We went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river. At the same time General Custer passed that high place on the ridge or a little below it he told his adjutant to send an order back to Captain Benteen.
Now this has been discussed before by posters who have actually been to the area and they say that the ridge is SSR, the ravine is Cedar coulee and the high place is Weir point.
I don't think that Curly was with the column when Martini was dispatched, more like he was with Bouyer on Weir.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Sept 7, 2016 13:05:36 GMT
Mac, I think that Martini said this; We went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river. At the same time General Custer passed that high place on the ridge or a little below it he told his adjutant to send an order back to Captain Benteen.Now this has been discussed before by posters who have actually been to the area and they say that the ridge is SSR, the ravine is Cedar coulee and the high place is Weir point. Just caught this going to bed Ian. We went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river. If they are going north and the ridge is SSR then a move to the right would not be Cedar. When moving north Cedar would be left of SSR. At the same time General Custer passed that high place on the ridge or a little below it he told his adjutant to send an order back to Captain Benteen. In the above case the high place on the ridge would be 3411. This would mean that Martini was leaving just after Kanipe which puts him further south than on your map. An interesting quote "It was Curley who said that Custer’s command traveled down Cedar Coulee from the bluffs and Martin, forgetful or lying, agreed with him. However, in the years following, Curley’s story would change time and again, and his maps were different each time he made one. Henry Weibert said metal detector surveys of Cedar Coulee found no evidence to support this version of the events." "Unraveling Riddles in the Shadow of Sharpshooter Ridge" With Michael Donahue By Mike Semenock, Friends Board Member Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 7, 2016 13:20:29 GMT
Jeez I don't have to amend that bloody map again do I!
I don't that there is no other ravines left apart from the three in a line, the one to the right of SSR and Yanmacca Environs would be further back and took him down a blind ally, unless he went over SSR and onto Yanmacca Environs then down into MTC, but that is not a ravine.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2016 16:32:19 GMT
Alas, those are your responsibilities when you Sir Ian KPW, when you are the Keeper of the Noble Map Case.
It is not a street, but I have dedicated my driveway in your honor. Not what you expected, but it is concrete.
I agree with Mac. They did not go into Cedar Coulee, at least not the whole column.
Formations: Keeping together does not necessarily mean playing follow the leader. I do think they kept together, but in a formation that was spread out over some good bit of ground. If they were split two and three for purposes of C&C, then all the companies would still be spread out, but there would be some more distance between the two subdivisions. Custer would be concerned about all around security, and while he may not have had the normal advance-flank-rear detachments out due to relatively good visibility, he would certainly adopt a formation that might resemble an oval that would do the same thing.
Columns are for traveling when contact is not expected. You never want to be caught in a single column on contact. NEVER.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 7, 2016 16:39:42 GMT
Chuck I have been saying now for yonks that the main column kept to the high ground, but I received post saying this would expose the column, so if they didn't use any of the three main coulees and kept off the high ground then they borrowed Capt. Kirk's transporter.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Sept 7, 2016 22:02:48 GMT
Sorry about the map Sir Ian (note I am tugging my fore lock as I speak). When Custer stops is it just to look at Reno and the village? I think it is to do that, but also to rest the horses and to plan the next part of the route. I claim no expertise but I do go with people like Montrose and QC who say that they would stay well to the east as they moved past the village. One thing every officer I ask says is that there is no way, having seen the village, they would attempt to attack via MTC. That is because you do not want to put yourself actually in the village environs. This is why I really doubt any trip down MTC to the river. It is pointless even as a reconnaissance. I do not have a map now but a route east of SSR and then using Yanmacca Environs seems likely to me. I have not been out there but I think Tom probably has and perhaps he will comment. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2016 22:39:49 GMT
There is high ground, then again there is high ground.
The further east you are, the less of a risk you take by transiting high ground. If you are far enough east that you cannot see the village and valley while you are on high ground, then they cannot see you. At that point your risk is reduced down to being discovered by a roving band, which in actuality what happened with Wolf Tooth. That risk is also present if you take the low ground, but in that instance, that roving band on high ground with you in low has you by the stacking swivel.
Low ground when contact is highly probable is death ground. Take the high ground, pay your money, and take your chances. Always remember when you ponder these things that it DUTS. It s always DUTS. DUTS should be in the mind and tattooed on the forehead of everyone who is in, married to, studies, pretends to study, pretends to pretend, ever been in, never wanted any part of, appropriates money for, orders into combat, played soldier in the back yard, or never heard of the military. Everything you do in life DEPENDS UPON THE SITUATION, and military decision making, and the application of tactics, techniques, and procedures is part of life.
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Post by yanmacca on Sept 8, 2016 10:27:37 GMT
Let's look at what Martini said at the RCOI and try and see just where the Custer battalion crossed Reno/Ash creek to ascend the bluffs and which route they took;
Q. After Major Reno went ahead, state if General Custer remained on that side? A. Yes sir, we went on a jump all the way.
Q. How near did he go to the river there? A. He did not go near the river at all; we struck a little creek where we watered our horses. That was the only place we halted.
Q. was that after Major Reno had gone ahead? A. Yes sir.
Q. Had Major Reno gone to the left of the creek? A. Yes sir.
Q. Tell how fast General Custer's column then went, and tell all you know about what direction and how far from the river, and whether you could see anything on the other side of the river? A. General Custer left that watering place and went about 300 yards in a straight line; then after that he turned to the right a little more and travelled that way four or five hundred yards; then there was a kind of a big bend on the hill. He turned these hills and went on top of the ridge. All at once we looked on the bottom and saw the Indian village.
Q. Tell in what direction you were then going? A, He (Custer) went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river. At the same time General Custer passed that high place on the ridge or a little below it, he told his Adjutant to send an order back to Captain Benteen. After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I traveled 500 or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time.
On-going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 300 or 400 yards above the creek where we (Custer’s men) watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 9, 2016 17:57:39 GMT
Just looking at what he said, I believe Martini had some difficulty in determining distance. Other than that I find nothing remarkable or unbelievable about what he said.
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Post by Beth on Sept 9, 2016 19:39:14 GMT
Martini probably was more familiar with the metric system which was introduced to Italy under Napoleon.
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