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Post by yanmacca on Aug 28, 2016 18:49:55 GMT
Hi everyone, just looking at the maps posted by AZ and wondered why Custer never used the route down Middle Coulee, now if Cedar Coulee was rough going and Western Coulee was too near the village, then Middle Coulee looks the obvious choice. This would allow for the column to move behind the bluffs and give Custer a chance to view the valley and once he reaches MTC he simply moves up to the LNC line of ridges. Here is my supposed route in blue;
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mac
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Post by mac on Aug 28, 2016 21:56:34 GMT
I need to go home and look at my maps Ian but an immediate response is that it is still low ground. Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Aug 28, 2016 23:08:14 GMT
Understanding GAC's route, if it included a detour to MTC, is exactly like his note to Benteen, as clear as mud.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Aug 29, 2016 2:55:42 GMT
Low ground on the move in broad daylight is death ground.
Is there any credible account anywhere that Custer used any coulee for an approach march, or is it the creation of the speculators? Somebody show me one. I am not that well read to presume that every known account has crossed my desk.
There is something that should be kept in mind here by all, and Beth or Mac, I forget which, mentioned it a few days ago. To shift any blame off of Custer and onto Reno and Benteen, Ford B is an essential element of the story. Without Ford B the blame Reno/Benteen falls apart. If you have a Ford B, you must have a three company array in the Keogh/Calhoun area, which in turn gives the Reno/Benteen detractors more time for those two to diddle and fiddle. It must be so because Custer had time to get to Ford D, withdraw to Cemetery Ridge, fiddlefart for half an hour, then end up dead by alien intervention. You find a Ford B proponent and 90% of the time you find either a custerphile or conventionalist.
I have been on a lot of leaders recons, read about many more, studied how to conduct one, and nothing I have been exposed to would suggest that a brigade level commander would go wandering about disputed terrain all by his lonesome for that purpose. It is a fairy tale. Hell you don't do that kind of nonsense as a platoon leader. They put stars, eagles, and oak leaves on your collar to command, not act the part of the clown
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 29, 2016 10:14:31 GMT
But this then opens up the debate on which route he took, did he hug the bluffs (Custer’s men were spotted numerous times by Reno’s men), or did he start further east and keep to the high ground along sharpshooters and on to LNC ridgeline.
That map I put up was to allow us to see what he and five companies would face if he did hug the bluffs and the options he had if he tried to reach MTC and if he did take this rout then he and his men would have had to ride down one of these coulees, now the common idea focuses on Cedar, but I am now trying to give us an alternative to this rugged ravine, now I obviously don’t know if Middle coulee is just as rough as Cedar, but I hope to find out.
I would favour the sharpshooter rout as it keeps the command moving along the high ground which is now used by the highway (212), but I cannot argue with facts and accounts prove that Custer’s men were seen on the bluffs overlooking the valley and figures were also seen on the point known as 3411.
But I have not mentioned anything about any solo reconnaissance work by Custer (aka Thompson) so I don’t know why it was brought up.
Yan.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 29, 2016 10:31:56 GMT
This shows just how big the difference there is between to two options, the top light blue line is the one we are currently favouring, while the lower darker blue line is the one which is known as the more likely rout. Very very different indeed and as far as I know nothing has been found to suggest that troops came down MTC, but army finds have been discovered along LNC ridge line. Now I just hope that I have got the eastern route right;
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Aug 29, 2016 12:00:13 GMT
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Post by azranger on Aug 29, 2016 12:09:26 GMT
I think that route 3 does go down middle coulee and it provides cover and concealment. We rode it twice after hearing rumors that a map had been discovered that was made from information from a scout.
You start down Cedar Coulee and as you pass the higher portion you cross into Middle Coulee. Its the same drainage that the current road is in.
There is nothing rough about Cedar Coulee though if you stay to the west side and remain concealed. That someone suggest the Cedars in the bottom would be a problem seems to lack horse sense and military movement skills. Why would you ride there in the bottom rather than just below edge?
Here we rode down Cedar Coulee in 2010 with the Real Birds. To the right is the bottom filled with Cedars and other debris. To the left is a ridgeline providing concealment.
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 29, 2016 12:21:25 GMT
That is a gentle slope there Steve and is nothing like the unforgiving terrain that google maps show, what is that small black dot to your front, is it another rider or even a dog?
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Aug 29, 2016 13:42:01 GMT
It's a dog that was along on the ride. Apparently he knew where to go. Notice the grass and the effect by one dog. It's a clear trail.
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Aug 29, 2016 13:44:12 GMT
We rode SSR one time and the route was smooth but it was on top of the ridge. I don't think if I were close to contact that I would want to ride that exposed.
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 29, 2016 14:07:28 GMT
Yes that trail is very clear and at first I thought it was a smudge on the picture but the trail confirmed it as an object.
You say that the rout along SSR was exposed but could this route be seen from the valley or the village?
If Custer was that far out from his objective then would he expect to be spotted? As once he got to the end of the ridges over looking the area of ford B, deep coulee and battle ridge, he was already in full view.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Aug 29, 2016 14:30:11 GMT
I think we are not dealing with a town where we could expect most persons to be on some sort of road in my opinion. I would expect to run into Indians any place that I could take 5 companies at one time.
My thoughts that any substantial number of Indians could not get around my right to attack the pack train without being seen. The view to MTC is sufficient to observe that activity.
The problem with SSR is that you leave open travel corridors to your flank and rear. As you get closer to MTC Indians could move against the pack train and not be observed.
At the bottom of SSR we had to turn into Cedar Coulee due to the terrain. So the end point of SRR and Cedar Coulee are approximately the same location. Even going down Middle Coulee is not that far when have to move across MTC.
I think I would like to see Martin's account filtered into the choice as far as where he could see. He describes in one account as it only took 10 -15 from the time he viewed the village with Custer until he moved out and then returned. I don't think SSR would fit that description.
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Aug 29, 2016 14:45:09 GMT
I remember DC tearing a strip off me because I used notes from this web site, I have kept my distance since, but I wonder if it has any credibility when dealing with Martini; link
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Post by quincannon on Aug 29, 2016 14:50:13 GMT
It was brought up, the leaders recon and Thompson, because I was too damned lazy to make two posts last night, so I said what I had to say in one place.
My point with the routes including Middle coulee and every other piece of low ground is that during daylight hours it is death ground, (read that as tactically inadvisable), and that the only source we have for anything suggesting that any one of those three coulees or in fact any near the edge of bluffs movement after 3411 is from people who write books and need to fit these things in.
What we do have though is Godfrey and JSIT both of which suggest that Custer took a different route, one much further east. Bot of those people are pretty reliable. The version with no witnesses (bluffs and coulees) is nearly incompatible with Godfrey and JSIT.
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