|
Post by Beth on Oct 22, 2015 22:47:07 GMT
So yes it was nearest the longest day of the year, and when you attack on an east to west axis what happens? I am not at all sure that pinch point in the river loop could be detected before crossing over the river at D. I would suspect they would not discover it until they bunched up trying to thread the needle. You can bet your last red cent the Indians both knew where it was and how to use it though. In the scenario I presented it was pretty obvious that Custer would try to get over at D. Unlike Colt I don't think he would divide again and have supporting fires down around B. You are going to have long and deep shadows in the evening on every rill or hill and the sun in your face probably at the worse possible angle. Just the thing to add to the situation when you have exhausted men who have been out in extreme heat for hours, little to drink, perhaps some dried meat and hard tack to chew on--if anything at all.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Oct 22, 2015 23:00:21 GMT
If he wants to cross the river he will need some distraction won't he or the whole gang will be waiting? Cheers
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Oct 23, 2015 0:16:45 GMT
Chuck, Custer may very well have not divided again at ford D, once he had everyone together. I personally would be inclined to put a force on both sides of ford B (east side only) to keep the Indians from crossing, and to provide enough trouble so that my unit coming from the north has less of a force to contend with. This has the effect of creating a flanking attack.
I am giving Custer credit for doing this based upon his previous sojourn to ford B and am making the assumption he would think of doing this. This could be a very big and flawed assumption about Custer and his tactical thinking, given what actually happened.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Oct 23, 2015 1:45:50 GMT
Technically I find this interesting. Would he use Ford B again or not? Has he really already blown the deal by showing himself at Ford B? If you need to cross a river surprise would seem to be important. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 23, 2015 3:23:09 GMT
Beth: Beware of the Hun in the sun. You are exactly correct.
The rest is where well meaning people can disagree and no one can say they are right or wrong.
I would not go to Ford B again if that ford was the end of the rainbow and a pot of gold was awaiting me midstream. I am not comfortable with the distances between the two prime points of attack. Make no mistake here folks what Colt describes is not an attack in a conventional sense, but rather an attack by fire, a diversion to attract attention away from the main effort.
Colt is comfortable with it, and I cannot say he is wrong.
Surprise went out the window the moment Custer stuck his nose out at B.
River Crossings
Go across wide, fast, and deep. Surprise is almost always an essential.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Oct 23, 2015 4:04:26 GMT
So surprise is gone. Can he have enough men to go both wide and deep? Were the D Fords wide enough anyway? It is really unlikely I think that he was going anywhere. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Oct 23, 2015 5:39:05 GMT
Make me wonder sometimes if in the end in others might have been urging Custer was looking for a way out to unite with Terry.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 23, 2015 10:20:42 GMT
Beth if Custer had kept his five companies united then you could say that he had an open door to escape, but once he left Keogh in situ then I don't think he and Yates would bug out on him.
Yan.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 23, 2015 10:26:13 GMT
Whats this pinch off spot? here is a image showing the river circa 1876, and the only pinch that I can see would effect the Indians rather that the army;
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 23, 2015 14:33:51 GMT
The right of the picture Ian. All the Indians have to do is plug that gap.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 23, 2015 14:54:52 GMT
Chuck that bottle neck would should be avoided by any attacker, if Custer had planned to hit this area with everything he had then surly he would have swung around using the river as a pivot and follow the line of the new road, rather than crossing over the top end of that loop.
Yan.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 23, 2015 15:45:57 GMT
Depends Ian on if there are fords there where the bridge now stands, and if Custer in his short time in the area determined the location of all of the fords.
I just don't think he had that much time in the area.
Custer blew his fast, wide, and deep when he failed to follow Reno
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 23, 2015 18:10:06 GMT
I would say one thing about that image, it shows up that ravine or coulee behind battle ridge really well, and I would expect that any commander worth his salt would use that as a means to get to any northern crossing point, and if anyone thinks that Custer would cross over into that meandering loop then this ravine or coulee would take them right to it, in fact it reminds me of how both deep coulee and MTC lead to ford B.
Yan.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Oct 23, 2015 22:57:25 GMT
This is an interesting "end point" analysis of the battle. Those who want to suggest that Custer was doomed due to the actions of others never address what Custer could do even if he had gathered Benteen and Keogh and the packs to him. This analysis suggests that we would be discussing how all those men were trapped on the east side of the river. Makes one think about how carefully the village had been located and constructed. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 24, 2015 11:28:57 GMT
Mac, I have always wondered what attack plan Custer would formulate with nine companies and a 80+ strong pack train at his disposal, the village would be fully alerted by then and with the valley fight over then the village would soon fill up with warriors, so we would have a situation of two large groups opposing each other with a river dividing them, one held the high ground and the other held a numerical advantage.
Yan.
|
|