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Post by quincannon on Apr 7, 2021 16:38:23 GMT
A couple of things strike me here, and one relates to the similarity between Task Force Smith and Task Force Custer, while the other relates to earlier comments on the Spitz.
Brad Smith and Custer both made the same error. When both saw the overwhelming force facing them the proper solution in both instances was to shoot, make the other guy deploy, then pull out heading south (in both cases). Both either though or were told that all they had to do was show the enemy Olive Drab or Blue, and the enemy would be intimidated into inaction. That, in both cases, is substituting wishful thinking to the practical realities of the battlefield. Therefore both Smith and Custer were defeated by their own mental preconception before the first shot was fired their way.
With regard to Task Force Baum. There was absolutely nothing wrong in my opinion with the concept of Task Force Baum rescuing the prisoners at Hammelberg, just as there was nothing wrong with the 8th Cavalry Flying Column going after Santo Tomas. The difference was that had TF Baum been used as a Spitz for 4th Armored Division, and 4th AD followed in their wake, none of the adverse portion of that episode would have occurred. The 1st Cavalry Division followed their Spitz in zone, and the operation was a great success.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 7, 2021 18:37:25 GMT
One thing which seems to foul up any of my theories is L Company, if they started to fly the coop on BRE, then wouldn’t L, C & I all be in the same vicinity around the same time?
I tried to insert in Indian accounts with stands made by soldiers and many say that the fire from the soldiers on the hill, made them dive for cover and in some cases, drove them back, now we could say that these were Calhoun’s men or they could have been E Company. The Indian’s just mention soldiers on the high ground firing, what high ground, cemetery ridge or battle ridge “aka Calhoun Hill”.
If they mean Calhoun’s skirmish line, then by all accounts it was having limited success, well until the Indians got onto their flanks and C Company broke. This length of time has always brought doubt to my scenarios because this fight on Henryville/Calhoun hill would have taken time, they must have still been shooting before Harrington arrived.
So bottom line we have three companies which left the same area to head south, so the only way it can pan out in my mind is that L Company either had a good head start or was left there in situ as the battalion moved north. But that leaves C and I. C like L, must have had a head start on Keogh’s outfit otherwise they would have joined in the battle like C Company did, but no, they virtually excepted survivors from both L and C, so why did they arrive late? Was it due to Keogh wanting to help Custer escape? But after seeing E and F losing their horses and drove off their positions, they decided to get out before it happened to them?
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 7, 2021 18:48:11 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Apr 7, 2021 20:36:57 GMT
I think we have to be careful here Ian. Head start can be taken to mean that a certain degree of orderliness existed and the time gap between units was more of a deliberate act rather than happenstance.
What I now think may have happened is that each of these companies were in essence fighting five separate battles in the same general area, and each of them moved or maneuvered to meet the needs of their own particular circumstance, rather that the circumstances of the whole battalion. There are places for instance within several hundred meters of one another where one unit could not see another much less lend mutual support, or act in coordination. Therefore it seems to me that each of those companies moved on their own, for their own particular purpose, and the trail leading south was in fact a result of at least three different actions occurring at three different times, and perhaps, and I am saying perhaps here, not it happened, that what we think of as looking like a general withdrawal (an it does) may very well be a re-positioning to meet an emerging threat. That may be a bit far fetched, but still I think a possibility
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 23:46:10 GMT
Here is my attempt at overlaying troop movements on the JSIT map. Dark Blue is Custer Outbound. Light Blue is Custer Retrograde. Red is of course the Natives. Do I have it right? When I first started studying the 1940 Battle of Arras, I was very confused because the graphics in the official history showed British as Red and the Germans were Blue. When I went back to a reprint of the book, the graphics were all black. I think the French were green. Or perhaps my memory is wrong. I sort of thought it was appropriate though. I did some research once on the origin or Blue/Red and the best guess is it developed during the Civil War when newspapers included Blue/Red pencils for people to mark up the maps. Probably, if its not true, it should be.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 8, 2021 2:25:38 GMT
Sorry Mike I did not express myself clearly. I have no problem with your original scheme of maneuver back on page 1. Further I do not have the expertise in your line of work to be a critic. Now that I look more closely it seems reasonable and I was just adding detail that I have gleaned from accounts to supplement the discussion.
I would add in that regard that in my mind all the Companies took casualties during the withdrawal from the river. This includes of course Tom Custer. Rain in the Face maintained all his life that he personally killed Tom Custer there with the Cheyenne.
Accounts say no one from Calhoun Hill area made it back to LSH so these men were wounded or dead on LSH when C,I,L retreated.
The point being that the time Custer stayed in contact at the river was probably short but the withdrawal was longer. I am fine with the travel times you list above. They tell us that things eventually unraveled quickly for Custer. Cheers
Mac, in the first place, you don't have to apologize. In the second place, you have much better knowledge of the battle than I and you have been on the ground. EDIT: IN the third place, I am a very model of a modern armored cavalryman and I have to work at adjusting to horsed cavalry. You may see some issues more clearly than I. We are not necessarily talking tactics, we are talking about my prejudices as a cavalryman. I am not seeing the battlefield the way you are. Let's focus on that. Here's the picture I have: It seems to me that E and F are deployed on LSH and the Cemetery (Ridge). L is passing through E and going to Calhoun Hill. E does not seem like it was under any pressure. Casualties on LSH and the ridge are not casualties incurred during the fall back. Where are C and I? Are they behind E or are they already vic Calhoun Hill? Are the Cheyanne hot on L's tail? Is that why the bolt to Calhoun Hill? It's probably mistaken to drop Rain in the Face into the Kuhlman derived lower fords operation of the Custer fight. RitF was quiet specific about where he went. Where Custer. Where their fights occured. Maguire's B H E route. RitF left a map showing this.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 8, 2021 5:57:07 GMT
Here is my attempt at overlaying troop movements on the JSIT map. Dark Blue is Custer Outbound. Light Blue is Custer Retrograde. Red is of course the Natives. Do I have it right? When I first started studying the 1940 Battle of Arras, I was very confused because the graphics in the official history showed British as Red and the Germans were Blue. When I went back to a reprint of the book, the graphics were all black. I think the French were green. Or perhaps my memory is wrong. I sort of thought it was appropriate though. I did some research once on the origin or Blue/Red and the best guess is it developed during the Civil War when newspapers included Blue/Red pencils for people to mark up the maps. Probably, if its not true, it should be. View AttachmentIt certainty is as good as anyone else's Mike, I did one similar, but it is lost in the midst of time, but I may still have it lurking about in my PC. I recall mentioning about that big bank, Mac said it could be cemetery ridge, but I thought it was greasy grass ridge, but there you go. Do you actually have them reaching the ford d flats?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 8:35:07 GMT
It certainty is as good as anyone else's Mike, I did one similar, but it is lost in the midst of time, but I may still have it lurking about in my PC. I recall mentioning about that big bank, Mac said it could be cemetery ridge, but I thought it was greasy grass ridge, but there you go. Do you actually have them reaching the ford d flats? No. I just tried to trace over the arrows which were very faint to me on the copy I was using and just wanted to make sure I had the general flow right. While I am still thinking about how the companies move and occupy ground, I have become convinced trying to nail down a reasonable path is all that is possible. The gamer/planner in me wants to explore different methods of conducting the fight. In my game group, we played one game in which the Custer player committed the whole Regiment up the Valley while we fudged Gibbon a little bit by having him in a defensive position, and the Indians were in between. The Indian player set fires to slow the cavalry progress and moved the village south while the warriors pretty much fixed the cavalry so they couldn't pursue. The game however, is a little tedious. A friend of mine is working on a computer game called General Staff which has a lot of AI and uses the McGuire map. I haven't spent much time playing computer games, but this may allow a lot of different scenario runs to satisfy my curiosity. My opinion thus far has evolved since I joined this board. While Custer's fatal mistake was deciding to attack, I understand why he did it and except for sending Benteen south, he may have stumbled on the best available COA. With 5 or 6 companies in the valley and him following with 5 or 6 or going the way he actually did may have been less lethal, but not decisive. I think if he had followed orders, they would have "lost" the village again. I agree leaving 3 companies behind is stupid and attacking with 5 seems logical, if futile. The strung out Regimental deployment at the end after returning from Ford D indicates a loss of command and control. Whether Custer was severely wounded and incapacitated during the Ford D withdrawal or the companies just degenerated into five separate fights is unknowable and probably does not make any difference in the outcome. I agree you have to control Cemetery Ridge, Custer Hill, and Battle Ridge to have the best chance of survival, but you need the whole Regiment as fielded or 5 or 6 full strength companies to have a chance to successfully defend. Custer's best chance for Custer to survive would have been massing on the Cemetery Ridge/Custer Hill complex with his five companies. Holding out till dark and the Gibbon column closing is the question. With both commands 'forted up' would the Sioux have continued the fight the next day against both positions as they did with Reno? The Indians may have had the numbers to fix both battalions (Custer and Reno) in position to cover the flight of the village. I disagree with the idea of the Sioux pulling off a double envelopment. I think a more accurate description is a swarming attack cutting the companies up mostly piecemeal, but the effect is the same. (A rose is a rose by any other name.) Crazy Horse seems to have displayed some tactical genius in the actions at the Rosebud and Little Bighorn, so it may well have been a double envelopment, but he is no Hannibal. If I had some drawing talent (computer programs by themselves don't make you an artist, but they can help the inept out some) I would show the Indians as a particle cloud going up all the draws and interpenetrating the cavalry positions. I am fixated on a Plains version of Finnish Motti Tactics. I don't think you can conceive of the Indians as organized units and use military icons to depict their actions. They are warriors, albeit well-led in this case, after all, and not soldiers. (I am really bothered that we refer to our soldiers as warriors. They aren't. The Taliban, AQ, and ISIS etc are basically warriors but with more discipline.) I think the events in Black Hawk Down and the The Ia Drang Valley are also modern versions of the LBH, but show air power, artillery, ability to resupply, and ability to rapidly reinforce are vital to success. There is still much to ponder and I REALLY need to get to the battlefield.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 8, 2021 13:22:33 GMT
You can see the movment better on this but you are right with the trails, the map is though quite all over the place, but you can see the road bridge and ford D.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 8, 2021 13:38:43 GMT
Just a timing note. Company I in my view left immediately after passing through Company E, so they had a big time gap before Company C left. Company C arrived at Calhoun Hill in time to deploy on FF Ridge when Company L had been there long enough to have been forced back up to the top of the hill and to have infiltration by warriors along FF Ridge. Company I are close behind Company C. In my view Keogh stopped Company I to assess the situation ahead and issue orders, hence he was found surrounded by NCOs. I add here that one of them is Sgt Bobo of Company C..just a coincidence? I think it likely that Bobo was sent back by Harrington to inform him of the situation ahead. As Mike has said Company I probably had only been in motion for a few minutes to reach their position from LSH.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 8, 2021 13:48:06 GMT
Thank you for your comments Tom; I am usually associated with drunk tanks rather than think tanks.
Since we are thinking hard about Ford D movements, and I love a good hypothesis, how about this.
I have always been interested in the fact that the identified bodies on LSH have Company F men naturally but there are 4 from Company L, 4 from Company I and 2 from Company C and naturally some Company F. I have said they could be wounded or dead left behind but here is another thought.
Tactically would it make sense in this situation for Custer to have taken say 4 men from each of Companies C,I,L,F and attached them to the HQ to create if you will a 6th company. This is way beyond my ability to ponder but perhaps the better educated here may have some insight to a tactical value in this.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 8, 2021 14:20:37 GMT
Mac, apart from Pvt McIlhargery and Pvt Mitchell (Co I), Custer had no men from either C, L, I, F & E intially with his HQ, Smith and TWC, got there by default.
Fred had this to say;
Doug Scott says Custer, 5 officers, and perhaps 40 EM lay on Custer/Last Stand Hill. 28 names are documented: 14 PVTs 1. PVT Ygnatz Stungewitz (C) 2. PVT Willis B. Wright (C) 3. PVT Anton Dohman (F) 4. PVT Gustav Klein (F) 5. PVT William H. Lerock (F) 6. PVT Werner L. Liemann (F) 7. PVT Edward C. Driscoll (I) 8. PVT Archibald McIlhargey (I) 9. PVT John E. Mitchell (I) 10. PVT John Parker (I) 11. PVT Francis T. Hughes (L) 12. PVT Charles McCarthy (L) 13. PVT Oscar F. Pardee (aka, John Burke) (L) 14. PVT Thomas S. Tweed (L)
2 civilians: 15. Boston Custer (QM) 16. Autie Reed
1 surgeon: 17. Dr. George Lord (HQ) (Marker 17 for Lord is on the SSL)
1 trumpeter: 18. Henry Voss (HQ)
4 NCOs: 19. SGM William Sharrow (HQ) 20. 1SG Michael Kenney (F) 21. SGT John H. Groesbeck (F) 22. CPL William Teeman (F)
[NOTE—CPL John J. Callahan (K) was identified on Last Stand Hill by others. The exhumation in 1877 of a body with corporal’s stripes could have been Callahan’s. Less likely in this location would be CPL William Teeman (F), probably found a little lower on the hill’s ridgeline. This would make the identifications total 29.]
SGT Robert Hughes’ (K) body was most likely the one found at the head of Deep Ravine, though there is a remote chance he was killed on Custer Hill. Supposedly identified by CPT McDougall. If Hughes were found on LSH—and the chances of that are high since he was known to be carrying Custer’s personal standard, that would raise the “identified” total to 30—71.4%.
Six officers: 23. GAC (HQ) 24. William Cooke (HQ) 25. Tom Custer (C/HQ) 26. Algernon Smith (E) 27. George Yates (F) 28. William Van W. Reily (F)
Presently, 52 markers are located on Custer Hill; 42 bodies were buried there initially.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 17:15:53 GMT
Ian, thanks for the clearer copy. For a long time I thought "R" stood for "Reno" and not "Road". The movement to the ford is much clearer on your copy. Mike
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Post by Beth on Apr 14, 2021 20:58:38 GMT
Center of Gravity discussion moved to its own thread. Here
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 19, 2021 12:41:40 GMT
A thought occurs to me, needs refining but I will throw it out for comment.
Supposition Custer does not know Reno/Benteen condition. Hence he thinks that a large number of warriors are confined at the valley or even Ford A.
Custer moves to Cemetery, LSH, BRE pretty much as Mike shows.
Next step Company E has moved to Cemetery Ridge (CR) on foot, facing the river, with horse holders leading the horses. Company L rides through Company E and heads over the ridge (accounts). Company L ride over CR through the head of the Deep Ravine catchment and stop on Battle Ridge as the next bound. When they get there Calhoun can see they are free of the warriors. This is because the warriors are in a half moon formation around the North end of BRE. The way South is open and looks clear. This is a window where the warriors returning from the Reno fight have not yet quite reached the village/MTC area. Calhoun seeing this sends Butler back to communicate with Reno/Benteen. Calhoun then moves off south towards Calhoun Hill where he will soon run into Gall and Crazy Horse as they arrive.
Company C now bound to Battle Ridge replacing Company L. Harrington sees Calhoun on the move and holds his position until Calhoun has reached the end of the ridge. Calhoun has actually moved down towards Henryville to confront Gall. Harrington then moves off down Battle Ridge. Company I moves to Battle Ridge replacing Company C. Numbers are now building to the East of Battle Ridge, both Cheyenne and returning Sioux. Lame White Man has moved back to Greasy Grass area. Company I wait until Company C is at the end of the ridge and then move off South. Company F loose their mounts and are fixed on LSH. Had this not happened then Company F and HQ would have moved to Battle Ridge and fired in support of Company E moving through Deep Ravine and up to Battle Ridge to complete the sequence.
OK fire when ready . Cheers
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