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Post by yanmacca on Apr 5, 2021 22:05:47 GMT
Well Chuck, how many times have you heard about Custer heading to get the noncoms, well there could be a case for Custer heading north because he needed to cross the river and not capture noncoms, they just happen to he in the area. The terrain chose this crossing point for him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 22:06:24 GMT
I have several problems understanding your scenario here. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying I just don't get it. You say that E Company withdrew from its position by the river and led its horses uphill to cemetary ridge, apparently without a fight. Where did they start from? How long do you think that walk took? To frame the discussion, lets consult the US Army Expert Infantryman's Badge Test for a 12 mile road march. It states that a soldier with his normal equipment (weapon, ammunition, water, etc.) plus a 35 pound rucksack load must be able to complete the course in 3 hours. So 4 mph or about 6.5 kph They follow a marked route which provides ease of movement, consistent terrain features, and no obstructions along the route that require the solider to maneuver around and it should be similar to terrain the soldiers have been training on. If there is a turn around point, it should be located in a place such that the soldiers don't obstruct each other as they turn around. Many soldiers run the course. On the below map each grid square marked by the blue line is 1km. Each hex is about 250m. Let's assume E CO starts in hex 0505 (but I will accept any starting point you select) and moves along the path 0605-0704-0805-0904-1005 which is 1.25km. The time it would take for them arrive is probably, at best, between and 11 and 18 minutes, assuming they are not molested and don't have to fight their way back. Next, another company, likely L, rode through them as they arrived on Cemetery Ridge, and on down to Calhoun Hill (HEX 1507). Where do you think they came from? If E CO was able to get into position unopposed, why would L rush straight through them and move to Calhoun Hill? Let's assume L gallops at 11mph or almost 18 kph, so they can fairly easily go from E CO to Calhoun Hill, if unopposed, could easily do that in around 4 minutes. Where do you think each company is when they start to fall back and where do they end up. Tell me the Hex numbers and I will move them there and repost, or I can send you the powerpoint with the map and units and you can place them as you see fit. View Attachment Sorry Mike I did not express myself clearly. I have no problem with your original scheme of maneuver back on page 1. Further I do not have the expertise in your line of work to be a critic. Now that I look more closely it seems reasonable and I was just adding detail that I have gleaned from accounts to supplement the discussion.
I would add in that regard that in my mind all the Companies took casualties during the withdrawal from the river. This includes of course Tom Custer. Rain in the Face maintained all his life that he personally killed Tom Custer there with the Cheyenne.
Accounts say no one from Calhoun Hill area made it back to LSH so these men were wounded or dead on LSH when C,I,L retreated.
The point being that the time Custer stayed in contact at the river was probably short but the withdrawal was longer. I am fine with the travel times you list above. They tell us that things eventually unraveled quickly for Custer. Cheers
Mac, in the first place, you don't have to apologize. In the second place, you have much better knowledge of the battle than I and you have been on the ground. EDIT: IN the third place, I am a very model of a modern armored cavalryman and I have to work at adjusting to horsed cavalry. You may see some issues more clearly than I. We are not necessarily talking tactics, we are talking about my prejudices as a cavalryman. I am not seeing the battlefield the way you are. Let's focus on that. Here's the picture I have: It seems to me that E and F are deployed on LSH and the Cemetery (Ridge). L is passing through E and going to Calhoun Hill. E does not seem like it was under any pressure. Casualties on LSH and the ridge are not casualties incurred during the fall back. Where are C and I? Are they behind E or are they already vic Calhoun Hill? Are the Cheyanne hot on L's tail? Is that why the bolt to Calhoun Hill? Attachments:
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 6, 2021 6:17:59 GMT
Just to fill you in Mike I work on a scientific basis of proposing an hypothesis and then seeking data to test it and, in the case of this battle, come to my most probable theory/conclusion. Consequently I am always open to ideas, contradictions, and discussions.
Now to your post above.
"Here's the picture I have: It seems to me that E and F are deployed on LSH and the Cemetery (Ridge). L is passing through E and going to Calhoun Hill. E does not seem like it was under any pressure." I agree that on Cemetery that is true but they had to get there and Smith being found on LSH makes me believe he probably was killed or wounded on or before Cemetery.
"Casualties on LSH and the ridge are not casualties incurred during the fall back."
I believe casualties on LSH are incurred during the fall back from Ford D. The warriors make a point of mentioning that two soldiers were killed and were left behind out near the road. This tells me that they were surprised that men were left behind. We both know you try to not leave anyone behind! So I think the men from C,I,L found on LSH were casualties from the Ford D action and retreat. I am not sure what you mean by the ridge. Battle Ridge? or BRE? "Where are C and I? Are they behind E or are they already vic Calhoun Hill?"
If you go to your Map 7 on page 1 of the thread. From the positions you show, I can see Co L moving off to Calhoun Hill and then a clockwise rotation of C to the L position and I to the C position and F to the I position. Then some time later (maybe 15 minutes say) C departs behind L towards Calhoun Hill and I moves to the C position and F to the I position.
Somehow when I departs F lose the majority of their mounts and are forced to run to their final position while getting covering fire from E on Cemetery Ridge. (This event is well documented in accounts.)
"Are the Cheyanne hot on L's tail? Is that why the bolt to Calhoun Hill?"
The progress of C,I,L to Calhoun Hill is not contested at all. Gall saw L coming and remarked that they were in no hurry. When L saw Gall and his buddies they confronted them in their first skirmish line low on Calhoun Hill (archaeology). L may have been going to hold/open the way across to Nye Cartwright or to Weir or anywhere else, we will never be sure.
Let me say it is great to talk through this part of the battle. Your work makes it really easy. Well done!
Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 13:53:34 GMT
HMMM. So F walked to LSH, covered by E who led their horses; the other three companies are mounted and the whole battalion is possibly grouped together in a semi-decent position. C and I are on the hill complex and L rushes straight through to Calhoun Hill, soon to be followed by C and I?
But they are not under pressure?
The battalion is now not mutually supporting. The LSH complex is much better than having the battalion strung out.
So here we are, assuming my Slide 7 is correct (which I find somewhat doubtful as is it is how I would have withdrawn and not drawn on evidence from the battle as a thought experiment):
* F is unhorsed, and left behind, except for the CP and E? * You think the battalion is bringing their wounded along with them (and perhaps their dead), even when some units are reduced to walking. * At this point, the battalion is not under pressure, but may see Gall massing and begining to move North, and then * Three out of five companies move at least 1km away from the current position to the south, giving up the slim defensive advantage they may have * The battalion, if I read the accounts correctly, is rolled up from South to North? * The command group by accounts is last to fall. * Just as it defies common sense for Custer to leave 3 companies behind when he goes to Ford D, it makes no sense for him to order those three companies to move back to Calhoun Hill at this point.
Clearly, I have failed to fully understand your theory and have to read the whole thread and the supporting threads again.
As far as no man left behind. While that is important, I don't think it had the force it has today. Reno's battalion left all sorts of people behind, dead and wounded. And the Army at the time, really only paid attention to the officers when it came time to mark and bury the dead, and not too well at that. Custer, for a variety of reasonds did the same at Washita, Reynolds at Powder River, and Crook at Rosebud. Perhaps this is where the trend of No Man Left Behind began because of the public reaction to the defeat at LBH.
I agree they would attempt to bring their wounded with them, but the dead probably would have been abandoned. We don't have any way to determine if those found on LSH were dead or wounded before they got there. Frequently, units trying to rescue their wounded when under pressure, suffer more casualties.
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 6, 2021 15:13:47 GMT
Hi Mike, Custer was sure that any serenity on cemetery and BRE would be short lived, and if the whole battalion moved as a whole they would lose men as they went.
I have thought about why they didn't just ride as a whole, because they would be large enough to cut through.
The Indian ring would probably move out of the way, like they did with Reno, then run down any stragglers and those unlucky enough to be hit on the flanks.
Send just your largest company to open a way through was a mistake, but having said that, they didn't know what was lurking in deep coulee.
The general consensus around here is that they fell back in stages and the last two companies got into difficulty maybe through the charge made by the "suicide boys"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 18:06:05 GMT
I think I understand the general consensus. To my eyes, the fall back should have ended on the LSH complex. It's looking a bit forlorn anyway. Crappy as it may be, it is better than being chopped up on the march and strung out. Make them come to you. And you are leaving the dehorsed CO F behind. Like I said, I have to go back through that whole thread again. It is not adding up, so I have missed something.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 6, 2021 20:31:51 GMT
No army ever acts with complete rationality when they are getting the shit beaten out of them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 20:46:25 GMT
There you go. That should be right up there with:
No plan survives first contact with the enemy. Plans are useless. Planning is essential. Find the bastards and pile on. and many others...
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Post by quincannon on Apr 6, 2021 21:17:19 GMT
Mike, Mac, and Ian: The more that I look at the amount of ground that was involved up at the north end of the battle space, the more convinced I become that everything that happened was under no positive central control above company level. Remember that if Custer's battalion was at or near full wartime strength it would number between 450 and 500 personnel. With that strength the two critical areas of BRE and Cemetery Ridge could probably been held and positive control at battalion level maintained, enabling the battalion to operate as a battalion, and not having penny packets of troops of say 30 to 40, trying to hold an area that should be held by a 100. Problem is the command and control measures of that day were designed for full strength units both at company, battalion, and regimental level, and there was no means of down sizing factored in for C and C, other than don't bite off more than a midget mouth can chew.
Therefore I become more sure with each passing day that those companies were not ordered out, they left, and the decision to leave was based upon each of the individual situations those companies faced. Montrose was correct in one of the things he liked to say, Custer started the day commanding a regiment and ended the day in control of a company (maybe).
You liked that one did you Mike? Here's another. The fickle finger of fate gets stuck up every army's ass once and awhile.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 21:26:51 GMT
quincannon I like all three of your statements above. After they got to Ford D, it was a company fight.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 7, 2021 3:11:18 GMT
Mike: I think you could write an article entitled Task Force Smith, then change the title to Task Force Custer, and not have to change the body of the article one little bit. Well maybe the T34/85 tanks but nothing more.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 3:18:42 GMT
Well, I wrote one on TF Baum and the raid to Hammelberg. It is similar too.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 7, 2021 8:57:22 GMT
Mike "HMMM. So F walked to LSH, covered by E who led their horses;"
No there is timing involved. E led their horses as they ascended to Cemetery Ridge. They set up there and held it to the very last part of the battle. Later, when Company I have left, Company F move to LSH. Accounts suggest that they (or at least some of them) did this on foot at speed because they had lost their horses. The horses had run down to the river. "the other three companies are mounted and the whole battalion is possibly grouped together in a semi-decent position. C and I are on the hill complex and L rushes straight through to Calhoun Hill, soon to be followed by C and I? But they are not under pressure?"
Again timing; The warrior accounts say there is a period of time where Custer did nothing. I believe that when Custer regained the high ground the warriors at Ford D dropped back for a while, and during this time Company L are able to move away behind Battle Ridge and reach Calhoun Hill. When they reach Calhoun Hill they see that Gall and his crew are nearby and they then confront the threat of Gall. Behind Company L some time later comes Company C and they too reach Calhoun Hill and deploy on FF Ridge to protect Company L’s right flank. Lame White Man slams them from Greasy Grass.
Company I never reach Calhoun Hill. They stop short and are attacked by Crazy Horse and many others and they die in place.
"The battalion is now not mutually supporting. The LSH complex is much better than having the battalion strung out."
I agree and so did some warriors in their accounts!"So here we are, assuming my Slide 7 is correct (which I find somewhat doubtful as is it is how I would have withdrawn and not drawn on evidence from the battle as a thought experiment):"
I did not say it is correct; I used it to suggest how the next step would perhaps go. We will never know the exact answer to their movements."* F is unhorsed, and left behind, except for the CP and E?"
That is how they are found.
"* You think the battalion is bringing their wounded along with them (and perhaps their dead), even when some units are reduced to walking."
I think it possible.
"* At this point, the battalion is not under pressure, but may see Gall massing and begining to move North, and then"
Gall is only seen by Company L when they reach Calhoun Hill.
"* Three out of five companies move at least 1km away from the current position to the south, giving up the slim defensive advantage they may have"
That is where they are found and the warrior accounts say they went there.
"* The battalion, if I read the accounts correctly, is rolled up from South to North?"
The battalion is caught in a double envelopment and al die inside this envelopment. So it is not a matter of North or South.
"* The command group by accounts is last to fall."
No, the men in Deep Ravine are the last killed. They reach Deep Ravine by moving there from Cemetery Ridge which is why they are mostly Company E.
"* Just as it defies common sense for Custer to leave 3 companies behind when he goes to Ford D, it makes no sense for him to order those three companies to move back to Calhoun Hill at this point."
I can’t speak for what the orders were, as QC said perhaps, they working independently. I can suggest that Custer might have every reason to suspect that Reno and Benteen are still fighting to the south and that he may, if he can break contact, be able to escape south and re-join them somehow. Think about this!
Alternately he may have seen better defensive territory on Nye Cartwright and could be trying to again break contact and move there. Does such a place exist?
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Apr 7, 2021 9:43:38 GMT
I thought all along that the idea of this battalion, moving back company by company, was a bit odd, it just didn't fit right.
I have also noted in the past that these companies where not all together and communication between all five would be hard to achieve, never mind to formulate a plan.
There was too much going on and communication was rudimental at best.
Fear is also a big factor, Indians could be moving between their ranks and isolating some from others.
I dont think it would be too critical to suggest that one or two of these companies broke south alone.
We saw how a similar thing happened on Weir peaks, company communication simply broke down.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Apr 7, 2021 13:22:42 GMT
The last couple of pages have been great, almost like reading notes from a think tank session. Thanks for that.
I sure don't have much to add, but some worn old thoughts about the move back south. In every action the enemy gets a vote, every action spawns some sort of reaction. Several years ago Linwood Tall Bull was asked a question, prefaced by "when the Cheyenne attacked Custer," immediately Linwood cut the questioner off saying we did not attack Custer, he attacked us. There are quite a number of questions. Why cry out for needed quick support and then continue to distance yourself from that support? Did Custer know Reno's action was crumbling, maybe from Boston (doubtful) or from Mitch Boyer? Remember, Mitch was on the ridge with three Crow scouts who were lobbing rounds into the village, before returning to Custer. I have been on that ridge, there is a clear view of where the Valley action was taking place.
There are a large number of markers between LSH and th Keogh sector, which way were those troopers going? Which sector fell the earliest?
As stated the opposition gets a vote. Gall cuts off C&L, LWM hits them from the flank. CH, hits Keogh broadside and inserts his warriors between Custer and Keogh. The Cheyenne close the back door. Game,set, match. No seventh inning stretch, game called due to the fact that the visitors don't have enough players to continue. The game is called before Weir gets to his seat, all he sees is the home team fans, rejoicing in their victory.
Sorry about the above!
Regards, Tom
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