The Valley Position

[yanmacca]

Hello HR, I hope you have been watching the London Broncos during their new found winning streak.

What would Reno better doing, waiting for his path back towards ford A get blocked or getting out earlier.

I would have guessed that charging through a cordon of Indians would be harder then charging through no opposition. Reno had no opposition behind him when he started to syphon troopers to man the timber. Once they all moved into the wooded area, their route back was sealed, they had to break the cordon and get chased by mounted warriors.

The game breaker was Crazy Horse entering the fight but he arrived to see that the area was full of groups of Indians and it was his presence which guided them forward but not after a pause in which he let the soldiers expend their ammo, then he gave the order to attack. Apparently CH was not in the vicinity early in the piece and took his time getting his act together.

I suppose the sight of soldiers moving off the line and into the trees would give a sense that they had enough and left the prairie open for the Indians to do what ever they want.

I would say that if Reno wanted to get out of that valley, he should have gone when he heard reports of the timber being attacked and M Company had to pivot due to Indians encroaching the left of the line.

Keeping their horses, all three companies could have ran just like they did later, but without having to charge through a cordon, sure the Indians would have chased them, but they would have had a head start and maybe done it in a more orderly fashion.

[quincannon]

HR: I know you say these things and cite these sources with all sincerity, BUT.

Having never led a 19th Century cavalry charge against artillery, and having participated (in training) of a withdrawal by bounds while in contact, I still will disagree with you on the degree of difficulty of the latter.

How many trained members of the Signal Corps were present in Custer's and Reno's battalions? Did these phantoms have the required signal flag to use in transmitting messages? How do you see what signal flags are transmitting over that distance, with, I believe, only one pair of borrowed field glasses, through the dust, smoke and the rolling nature of the terrain.

The is absolutely no question that Reno had the motivation to communicate his situation to Custer, but motive alone is no good if you have neither means nor opportunity.

Well if the Indians did not surge, how is it that Reno incurred so many casualties during his breakout from encirclement?

The world may not want these answers to very important questions, but I do.

[herosrest]

Your bounds involve automatic weapons and muzzle loaded artillery and on upwards although I imagine it is for SHTF scenario. Fire. Move.Halt. Fire. Move. You're going to tell me it's rocket science.

There was a point to the Sigint data and you missed it.

Custer was North, out of sight and Reno took himself South back into the valley .

Losses duringg Reno's charge into the river resulted from hostiles mounted on fresh ponies who closed rapidly after initially backing off as mounted troops emerged from the timber.

The Surge, if you like, occured as Company M left the field to enter the timber. The Sioux circled the retreat and circled around the timber.

You are very welcome to the font.

[quincannon]

1) A retrograde by bounds has been around on the tactical menu since man put down the club and picked up something he could shoot.

2) "Fire, move, shoot" You don't understand a retrograde by bounds while in contact do you?

3) I guess I did miss it. Enlighten me.

4) "Custer was north, out of sight, and Reno took himself back into the valley" Reno went into the valley but his battalion stayed on the bluffs. What's your point? Are you saying that Reno himself should have gone north and signaled Custer, by some unknown means, by himself? Come on HR you typed yourself into a corner, and I am not going to let you get out of it easily.

5) That is the very point of a breakout of encirclement maneuver, break through rapidly, but expect the opposition to close rapidly as soon as they recover from the initial shock action and effect. That is why the maneuver is so difficult.

6) You defeated your own purpose by this sentence. First you tell me there is no hostile surge forward, then you go about describing their surge.

Think about what you are writing before you embarrass yourself.

There is one, what I think is a very good, piece of advice I will give you if you wish to continue to study battle. Be neutral, despise them all, don't play favorites. Judge them on what they did, not on what you think of them. You have a fine mind, and unequaled abilities to research material, but none of those attributes will serve you well if you continue to travel down Rini Road. You are better than that.

[benteen]

Hi Ian,

I think what you are saying makes sense except I believe you are not considering an important factor. Reno was given orders from Custer, and from those orders I believe it is perfectly logical for Reno to think he was the advanced guard. His mission was to engage the enemy and try to find or create a gap in the enemy for the main body to exploit. Reno did engage the enemy but the force was to strong for him to create a gap. He did the next best thing, he formed a skirmish line and stayed engaged with the enemy. However, when it became clear to him that the main body was not following up (In my opinion) he felt his mission as an advanced guard was over and it was time to turn his attention to saving his command.

As I have said ad nauseam "When you are in an untenable position, right or wrong DO Something" It didn't take a Lucian Truscott to figure out that he was in an untenable position. Reno Did something, he took his command to what he believed would provide some cover and concealment for his men.

We have discussed many times the way he went in and out of the timber but my only point is that I believe his action in the valley was correct and what you would expect from a good Officer.

I think you know that I believe that Benteen was the best Officer that day. I think that Reno especially after his wife died, was a surly miserable human being that no one except Benny Hodgen liked, but I cannot let my thoughts on his personality interfere with what I believe his actions were as an Officer which as I said were wll done.

Be Well Old Friend
Dan

[mac]

I have to agree with Dan.

Thanks for your post QC it points out that if Reno was to retrograde he would need to do it shortly after being challenged in his advance and this, of course, is a ridiculous proposition.


Cheers

[mac]

HR

I take this to be your point

Brig-Gen. G.A. Custer said, in a letter to Capt. Norton, Chief Signal Officer, Army of the Potomac, dated Headquarters 8rd Division, Cavalry Corps, Dec. 10, 1863: — "Since I have become acquainted with the Signal Corps of this army, the information of the enemy obtained through its officers, and the rapid manner they have of transmitting intelligence by flag signals, has convinced me of the great value of this branch of the service during military operations in the field.



Read more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/831/valley-position?page=4#ixzz5rEzuUQOc


Custer simply needed a Signal Corps and Gatling Guns, which he knew , pity he forgot to take them. Oh to have gold teeth!

Cheers

[deadwoodgultch]

HR, let's not agree to disagree. Your points are well taken, but I will say again that Reno sent two messengers who died with GAC. Communication is a two way street. CAC also did not send Hereendeen through Tullocks with the update to Terry. He wanted a solo performance and got it in both cases.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

HR: Forgot to mention it yesterday. Your use of SIGINT is improper. That term does not convey the meaning that you wished it to.

SIGINT is short for Signals Intelligence, the intelligence gathered by monitoring the electronic spectrum when your enemy is foolish enough to use it improperly or carelessly. Midway was won by use of SIGINT.

[herosrest]

1) Correct

2) Incorrect

3) Custer understood the need to communicate. Reno did not.

4) As above - I don't feel like wriggling.

5) You asked. I answered.

6) I had to go back and assess my 6. There's a Zero on it.

If term of common ground. The Sioux, did not do mounted frontal attacks so let's call it something else.  Headbangers would undertake solo bravery runs and enmasse they would chase and circle a retreating or standing foe. That is how they fought. The idea that hundreds of them fell upon Reno's retreat to thr timber is not so. They did not close until they had the advantage of Reno's mounted retreat.

I adopted your term of surge. What actually was done was a buffalo hunt once the soldiers were running mounted. We're splitting hairs and you are trying to score points. What can you win? This is a discussion. Sioux circled foes and hunted buffalo from horseback.
There should be some common ground for us here.


Now. As far as I am concerned - Custer should have returned across Medicine Tail and joined the companies sheltered there. Twelve companies would then have been besieged and survived rather than the seven which Reno and Benteen saved.

[herosrest]

Jun 19, 2019 12:25:02 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

HR, let's not agree to disagree. Your points are well taken, but I will say again that Reno sent two messengers who died with GAC. Communication is a two way street. CAC also did not send Hereendeen through Tullocks with the update to Terry. He wanted a solo performance and got it in both cases.

Regards,
Tom

Custer did send messages and Reno and Benteen did not message urgently when problems arose. Benteen felt Custer could take care of himself and said so. The solo performance aspect of Custer's attack on the 25th June is a kettle of kippers and topic'd to death on many discussions. Herendeen could have travelled on the 25th to deliver whatever message to Terry and arrived before the morning of the 26th. 

Regardless of all opinion, 7th Cavalry had been discovered by a band of Cheyennes travelling to join Sitting Bulls camp. Had Custer followed the Rosebud to near the Crook battlefield or on to Ranchester, scene of the 1865 Connor battl, then he would have been treated as Crook was. If the gathered host was as large as some believe then they could have gobbled up Terry, Gibbon and Brisbin, at the same time. Herendeen could have reached Terry by the morning of the 26th. Had Custer been able to scout the camp during the 25th then Herendeen would have conveyed accurate and timely information. That would have made absolutely no difference to Custer since his intent was dawn attack on the 26th and Terry could not arrive until the time he actually did unless force marching the last 10 miles during the night of 26/27th. 

Regards.

Henala. 

[quincannon]

OK, lets get some common ground. First off a surge does not equate to a frontal attack. It may be a frontal attack, depending upon who is doing the surging, like say the 1950 version of the Chinese Peoples Army at the Chinaman's Hat, or along the Injin River., but it does not have to be.

The way I use the term is as a forward movement to gain a detected weakness of the retrograding force or a position of advantage over a retrograding force. The encirclement of Reno's battalion as it retreated into the timber would fit both of the above definitions, and not necessarily involve any sort of frontal attack. It would in fact mirror the encirclement of a buffalo herd.

So can we agree on that, the manner in which I use the word?

As far as what Custer should have done, I partially agree with that as well. I say partially in that once across he should have seen the smoke signals on the wall, to wit, he was about to get his ass handed to him and gone back. Partially also refers to the idea thar he should have never been there in the first place.

So you understand a retrograde by bounds while in contact do you. Well your answer to 2) said incorrect, so I assume you do. I am quite busy this afternoon assembling and painting the hull of the IJN Shimakaze, so if you will kindly enlighten all of these folks with your grasp of the two ways to do said maneuver, and just how each is performed, and how to choose one over the other dictated by the tactical situation. You walked into that one Sunshine. Stand and Deliver. 

[deadwoodgultch]

HR, the NA's were infiltrating in the timber along the river and firing down into it from the other side of the river and had already turn the left end of the skirmish line. Reno did not release those Indians to attack GAC, he removed the majority his command from harms way. His job at that point.

Regards,
Tom

[deadwoodgultch]

Jun 19, 2019 17:12:23 GMT herosrest said:

1) Correct

2) Incorrect

3) Custer understood the need to communicate. Reno did not. You are Fking kidding.

4) As above - I don't feel like wriggling.

5) You asked. I answered.

6) I had to go back and assess my 6. There's a Zero on it.

If term of common ground. The Sioux, did not do mounted frontal attacks so let's call it something else.  Headbangers would undertake solo bravery runs and enmasse they would chase and circle a retreating or standing foe. That is how they fought. The idea that hundreds of them fell upon Reno's retreat to thr timber is not so. They did not close until they had the advantage of Reno's mounted retreat.

I adopted your term of surge. What actually was done was a buffalo hunt once the soldiers were running mounted. We're splitting hairs and you are trying to score points. What can you win? This is a discussion. Sioux circled foes and hunted buffalo from horseback.
There should be some common ground for us here.


Now. As far as I am concerned - Custer should have returned across Medicine Tail and joined the companies sheltered there. Twelve companies would then have been besieged and survived rather than the seven which Reno and Benteen saved. You have not been to to MTC, there is no way to mount a frontal attack there, Also, the village was nearly 3/4 of a mile across there, that is why he(GAC) did not try,

Your knowledge is sorely lacking with above blather. You are currently in a gunfight with a rubber band.

Regards,

Tom

[deadwoodgultch]

Jun 19, 2019 17:25:30 GMT herosrest said:

Custer did send messages and Reno and Benteen did not message urgently when problems arose. Benteen felt Custer could take care of himself and said so. The solo performance aspect of Custer's attack on the 25th June is a kettle of kippers and topic'd to death on many discussions. Herendeen could have travelled on the 25th to deliver whatever message to Terry and arrived before the morning of the 26th. Custer was asked/ordered to send him through Tullock's, they passed early the day before.

Regardless of all opinion, 7th Cavalry had been discovered by a band of Cheyennes travelling to join Sitting Bulls camp. Had Custer followed the Rosebud to near the Crook battlefield or on to Ranchester, scene of the 1865 Connor battl, then he would have been treated as Crook was. If the gathered host was as large as some believe then they could have gobbled up Terry, Gibbon and Brisbin, at the same time. Herendeen could have reached Terry by the morning of the 26th. Had Custer been able to scout the camp during the 25th then Herendeen would have conveyed accurate and timely information. That would have made absolutely no difference to Custer since his intent was dawn attack on the 26th and Terry could not arrive until the time he actually did unless force marching the last 10 miles during the night of 26/27th. Again blther, Terry could a dispatched the 2nd Cav. and mounted infantry late on the 24th or early on 25. Nice try, also Terry had dent troops up Tullock's to find him on the 24th and found a butchered buffalo. Terry had stopped forward movement to await word. Look it up.Regards,Tom