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Post by yanmacca on Jun 12, 2019 14:26:48 GMT
Before I start, I would like to thank Fred for the use of these images.
As we know Reno reached a certain point in the valley before he set up defensive positions. I want to explore the options he could have taken before he was forced to charge through a ring of hostiles [Yes Reno himself said to one of his group, that was a charge sir].
Look at Fred’s map of the valley and you can see behind the advance a ditch named ‘Otter Creek’ I have posted an image of this so called ‘dry ravine. If Reno saw that he was losing the battle of the prairie, would this be a better place to withdraw to rather than the timber? It reaches right across the valley from north to south and provides cover.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 12, 2019 14:31:53 GMT
Part two of this post; I have also posted two images of the infamous brow, which ran in front of the timber. Unfortunately, this was not included on Fred’s map or any other map I have. But you can see that it provides cover not only for troops but horses. I am not saying that he had enough to hold this position but it looks better than the position he held on the prairie.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 12, 2019 14:32:37 GMT
I would suggest that Reno stayed too long in a position which was untenable once he dismounted. I know he didn’t know this at the time and he probably still held the notion that Custer was in the vicinity and was still going to support him.
But if Reno had kept his whole battalion on the prairie and in skirmish, he could have ordered a fall back to Otter Creek and finally back to ford A. He knew when he dismounted that his attack was dead in the water, once the defense of that piece of grass became a trap, he should have taken his command out of danger.
If he did this then we could have had six intact companies under the command of Benteen and Reno, which would have given them options.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 12, 2019 16:58:10 GMT
Had Reno used the Otter Creek position as a fall back from the skirmish line, vice the timber, it would have offered the requisite cover but absolutely no concealment. Reno's line has he occupied the Otter Creek position would probably mean that his line would have extended no more than 400 meters in length, and more probably a lot less. That tells me two things
a) The line could still be easily flanked in the west, and even more vulnerable in the east, primarily by infiltration on the east bank of the river and into Reno's rear.
b) The Otter Creek position offers you no opportunity for a plan B if the Otter Creek line fails.
The timber offered Reno just enough concealment to aid a breakout from encirclement, a plan B
That map, specifically the way it portrays the limits of the village is interesting to me. I am sure Wagner thinks those are the correct boundaries, and it explains a lot as to why he holds the theories he does. I believe he has underestimated the size south to north by at least a mile and more probably a mile and a half. Had it been a little over a mile as Wagner suggests, the village would have extended westward a mile or more from the river, and much of it would have been clearly visible from either 3411 (Wagner's creation and pet) or Weir Point. It takes a lot of room for seven to ten thousand people to set up camp, and it is more probable to me that the village was configured long from south to north, and rather skinny from east to west, unless you think they would relish the prospect of walking a mile every time a family or group was in need of water. You have the equivalent of river front property here, wouldn't one think that you would take advantage of it.
Note: My estimation of probable size of the village is about three hundred meters east to west, and about five thousand meters south to north.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 12, 2019 20:11:50 GMT
Fair points, but how about otter creek as a fall-back position for a withdraw back to ford A. We saw how Godfrey managed to stall the Indian surge long enough for the others to escape and we have been debating the idea that Custer tried something similar on BRE.
I agree holding otter creek for any length of time would result it Reno being out flanked but falling back and leaving say company M to hold the creek would give the others a chance to get clear, then they could try and join up again near ford A.
I would guess that by the time they reached ford A, Benteen would be in the area, but of course Reno wouldn’t have this in mind. Even though Gerard’s Brow offers concealment, it still leaves them pinned with their backs to the river and would still mean them charging through the hostile lines.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on Jun 12, 2019 22:21:09 GMT
Yan, You hear it all the time, "take the high ground". High ground has advantages. Otter Creek is low ground. As Chuck said, it provides cover, but very little else. He also mentioned how easy it would be to flank the ends of the creek, which would provide cover for the Indians doing the flanking. And what happens to the troops once they decide to leave the creek to retreat back to ford A? They come up from cover and, being on foot, are easy pickings for the superior numbers the mounted Indians had. They would have superior numbers and firepower, and superior mobility. Using the creek instead of the timber would result in the annihilation of Reno's command.
Besides, didn't Reno say he halted at the creek because it was full of Indians (I think he said that, but not sure), besides being too wide to leap?
Godfrey succeeded in delaying the Indians because his position was higher ground than the Indians were on coming from the Custer battle, plus he was still mobile and had room to maneuver. Otter creek did not allow for any maneuvering.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 12, 2019 22:24:46 GMT
What you are suggesting is a conventional retrograde by bounds, with Otter Creek as the initial hold position. I do not think it would work because every move you made would be detectable by the Indians, and even if they had not flanked that initial skirmish line before you fell back to Otter Creek, they would certainly surge your front and left flank the moment they detected any further movement rearward toward Ford A from Otter Creek.
If you could not stop their advance with three companies on the skirmish line, it is unlikely that one company holding them up at Otter Creek would be any more successful. In addition the two companies you sent back toward Ford A might make it, but you could kiss the holding company goodby.
Godfrey was able to hold off that bunch of Indians with Company K because he was positioned on a narrow north-south finger of land where terrain on his left was no-go, and the terrain on his right was complicated (meaning rough) enough to slow any thought of flanking him with the required speed.
The valley was one of those places that if you enter without a sufficient amount of force, your chances of achieving a good result are minimal to non-existent, and your chances of getting out again alive are about 80-20 against. That is the reason that I can't find any reason to blame Reno at all. He was sent in. He did not go in on his own initiative. He was promised help that he expected, but never came. Yet he still managed to get most of his people out, very much against the odds.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 12, 2019 22:31:06 GMT
I would like to through shampoo on the Otter Creek/dry wash position. Was that not the ditch that Reno stopped in front off? Don't make me pull out my notes. It was too wide to jump and had NA's already in it. Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 13, 2019 8:05:21 GMT
Morning Tom I have never been there so I have to rely on maps. The map I posted clearly shows that the battalion had that Creek to their rear when they skirmished so I can only go on what I can see using that particular map.
Maybe it was a map error, but can't see Fred making a mistake as obvious as that.
I know that some of Reno's officers said that the Indians filled a Creek or ravine directly in front of their lines. So I hope this story of the creeks can be cleared up.
BTW: where is Khulman's ravine.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 13, 2019 10:11:45 GMT
Khulman's ravine was, depending on orientation, was to Reno's front. According to McElfresh map Reno may have crossed a lower portion of Otter. Yet, evidently it was an impediment to a direct line to the village and it was stated that they held up in part, due to the ditch.
These drainages were seasonal and fed by springs and runoff, they emanated from the benches. The flow of Otter is west to east. angling south.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 13, 2019 10:33:06 GMT
So we are looking at two distinct creeks which virtually Samwiched Reno.
I don't know why Fred didn't add Khulman's to his map as it would have shown what Reno had to his front and rear plus the brow should be noted too as this was also a major feature.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 13, 2019 12:05:59 GMT
Great discussion of terrain and possibilities! It has always seemed to me no accident that the valley floor south of the village was complicated. I think the village position was probably partly selected on the position of those features slowing any quick movement into the village. I also see great logic in the dimensions being long in the north south axis to facilitate access to the river.
Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 13, 2019 16:24:07 GMT
There were two more creeks that don't always show up on maps, one in the middle of the village and one just north of the Cheyenne camp. There was a ditch in the timber, may have been an old river course. The climb up the benches is somewhat steep and the NA's could have fired right down into the skirmish line or dry creek beds.
The valley was a great venue for attack, if Custer had followed up the Reno advance guard movement. It could have, repeat, could have been a game changer.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 13, 2019 19:58:17 GMT
You can see a lot of those creeks on this map;
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 14, 2019 0:05:28 GMT
Excellent post Yan! It is very interesting to study the options facing Reno and if they could have changed the outcome of his retrograde from the Valley to his position on the bluffs? Interested in what the others opine. Regards Dave
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