|
Post by herosrest on Jun 16, 2019 22:56:53 GMT
If I am supposed to be able to identify a horseman on the ridge top why is it I cannot tell the make and model of those automobiles driving across that ridge top. "You can pretty much tell by the uniforms. Everyone wore different uniforms." What the f**k. And you people read this guy's book? HR: Please tell me in as much detail as you can muster how Reno could have saved Custer, given the situation Reno found himself in when he reached the top of the bluffs? Keep in mind when you relate this to all of us that by the time Reno reached the bluffs Custer was already cut off from behind in everyone's scenario. Then if you will be so good provide for me a laundry list of tasks that Reno would have to accomplish, with or without Benteen's arrival, before he could move forward to assist Custer? Then please give me an approximate time it would take to accomplish those tasks? The professional term is consolidate, reorganize, and redistribute. QC: The Good Major could have gone to Weir's Peak and communicated to Custer where he was. He didn't have to do anything else. Urgently advise Custer of his situation. The question of course is how?
|
|
|
Post by rebcav on Jun 17, 2019 0:23:44 GMT
Maybe he could have used Smoke Signals? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2019 1:36:52 GMT
Or the ever popular piece of string and two Dixie Cups might do the trick. Where Custer was and Weir Point are two or more miles apart.
How was Reno to know to go to Weir Point? He, like everyone else did not know where Custer was, not to mention that the area immediately below Weir Point was swarming with Indians.
In other words HR you do not have an answer - correct?
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2019 10:28:25 GMT
I don’t think Reno had to contact Custer, Cooke had given him his orders ‘’The Indians are about two miles and a half ahead on the jump, follow them as fast as you can and charge them wherever you find them and we will support you’’
So, Reno had his orders and he made contact with the Indians, also on his way down the valley, he sent two couriers to Custer so he had not only engaged the enemy, he had sent two reports back to RHQ.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 17, 2019 11:13:11 GMT
Tom, why are all the books so bloody expensive, fifty sheets is a lot money, hell we can get a week in spain all in a 4 star hotel including room, food, drinks, transfers from the airport and back and flights for 500 quid for the two of us. I would be lucky to buy 10 books off amazon for that price Priorities my man. You get what you pay for in most venues. I couldn't buy everything I listed for the air fare to the UK and have enough left for cab fare and drinks. Hell I spent more in gas to get to Montana.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2019 11:21:08 GMT
You are right there Tom, Priorities indeed, I have a list of them at the moment starting in a damp patch in the kitchen, new drive way for the car and a new green house just for me.
I hope you are having a great time out on the prarie with Steve.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 17, 2019 11:33:28 GMT
If I am supposed to be able to identify a horseman on the ridge top why is it I cannot tell the make and model of those automobiles driving across that ridge top. "You can pretty much tell by the uniforms. Everyone wore different uniforms." What the f**k. And you people read this guy's book? HR: Please tell me in as much detail as you can muster how Reno could have saved Custer, given the situation Reno found himself in when he reached the top of the bluffs? Keep in mind when you relate this to all of us that by the time Reno reached the bluffs Custer was already cut off from behind in everyone's scenario. Then if you will be so good provide for me a laundry list of tasks that Reno would have to accomplish, with or without Benteen's arrival, before he could move forward to assist Custer? Then please give me an approximate time it would take to accomplish those tasks? The professional term is consolidate, reorganize, and redistribute. QC: The Good Major could have gone to Weir's Peak and communicated to Custer where he was. He didn't have to do anything else. Urgently advise Custer of his situation. The question of course is how? Or the good Colonel could have communicated his battle and support plans with his subordinates. What a novel thought. Then after the note to Benteen not to continue to distance himself from any means of requested support. You also don't let the enemy get between you and that support. As Ian said two of Reno's messengers died with GAC. Maybe Butler was such a messenger, we will never know. These arguments are cyclical. Your serve!
Regards, Tom
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Jun 17, 2019 12:14:27 GMT
We know from Wolftooth that the village had guards out. This suggests to me that the quick first response to Reno was just that a first response group for just such an event. Followed up by those near enough and quick enough to join in. The point I add here is that the pressure built quickly so Reno's response had to also be timely. The problem for him being the expectation that he hold until Custer arrived. If quickly after dismounting he decided to back up by bounds would that solve his problem or would he simply have eventually been caught and then back in the same or worse situation? Cheers
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jun 17, 2019 14:55:02 GMT
Hi Mac, if he did decide to fall back in bounds, then it would have to be early in the piece, remember what I said in an earlier post abount the battalion dismounting and walking forward over 500 yards before deploying in skirmish, well if the would have rode those 500 yards rather than walk, and then made the decision to withdraw, then who knows, maybe they could have done it, as they would have arrived earlier and still had their horses with them.
All the reports from the officers say that the Indians where more intent to mask the village by riding around in circles ploughing up dust so it looks like they are trying to delay the soldiers rather than coming out to get them.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2019 16:43:21 GMT
If he fell back by bounds early he would not have fulfilled what he thought was his mission, the mission of an advanced guard - to develop the situation.
If he had advanced those five hundred yards mounted he would not be able to bring his most lethal weapon - the carbine - into the fight.
If they walked forward those five hundred yards, thereby being able to use their carbines, they would have already been in a skirmish line formation while walking. To skirmish is to dispute the possession of the terrain being skirmished over. Had they walked forward in skirmish order and not had their mounts behind them, immediately available to them if needed. They would not of had to worry about walking back.
What the officers said played into their notion of Indians always run. So, were those Indians running around in circles masking the village or were they masking the buildup that was behind the initial screen? Reports say that there were approximately nine hundred Indians to Reno's front. Don't know how they reached that figure. I suspect it was a guesstimate, but nine hundred is about nine times the amount you would need to screen a village, and just about right for an immediate counterattack.
No matter what the officers thought, reality is that they did come out to get Reno in force, and one hell of a lot earlier than they would have been able to accomplish this had they (the Indians) been caught flat footed, with no early warning. The early arrival of those that were thought to be a screening force was sufficient to stop Reno's forward momentum. That was their task. Those arriving a short bit later were there to launch a counterattack (in my view pre-planned) and destroy him. They accomplished their mission and reduced Reno to a defeated remnant of a battalion, with little hope of restoring combat readiness for at least an hour, and probably more.
Again, there are members here that are relying on written agenda driven opinion rather than what they themselves can see if they lay out all of the known facts without anyone's modification of those facts, apply sound tactical practices to the facts laid before them, and judge for themselves what happened.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2019 18:09:19 GMT
Mac: Retrograde, by bounds, while in contact is the second most difficult tactical operation you can perform. The only thing that beats it in difficulty is breakout from encirclement.
To be able to retrograde by bounds, you must have at least one thing working for you, and it is marginally better if you have two.
1) The first is that the holding bound must have sufficient firepower to temporarily cover the entire front with firepower, and you must also increase the rate of fire to do it. The timing involved is that the remaining bound must hold long enough for the bounding unit to both withdraw and then set up a supplementary position to cover the withdrawal of the bound that initially stayed in place. It is best accomplished if you are withdrawing over rolling vegetated terrain, which leads me to the next imperative.
2) You must be able to mask your intention to withdraw, by one of four factors, the rolling nature of terrain, vegetation present along the intended route of withdrawal, weather (you pray for a damned good downpour of rain or binding snow), or by some artificial man made means like smoke. An increase in volume of indirect supporting fires also helps greatly.
All of these things are necessities, and none of them were present. The idea is to prevent a forward surge by hostile forces. None of them were present in the valley, therefore any withdrawal early on would be just about as bad at what did happen, and had that decision been delayed, no one under Reno would have had supper on this earthly plain that night.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jun 18, 2019 11:40:04 GMT
QC: The Good Major could have gone to Weir's Peak and communicated to Custer where he was. He didn't have to do anything else. Urgently advise Custer of his situation. The question of course is how? Or the good Colonel could have communicated his battle and support plans with his subordinates. What a novel thought. Then after the note to Benteen not to continue to distance himself from any means of requested support. You also don't let the enemy get between you and that support. As Ian said two of Reno's messengers died with GAC. Maybe Butler was such a messenger, we will never know. These arguments are cyclical. Your serve!
Regards, Tom
You surprise me. I guess this just heads into pedantic orbit so, it might just have helped Custer a tad, to know that his opening gambit had folded and that half the regiment were idle in battle awaiting resupply, out of sight and east of the river, having released several thousands hostiles to cut off the five companies from returning whence they came. In his place, I feel that you would have appreciated an urgent update which would have prevented what was preventable. I have serious reservations about Custer not having a plan or divulging it. We can save that one for another time though... I believe that Custer charged a lot and that he could have charged back across MTC because Indians did not stand in the face of mounted charges. They retreated and scattered as happened numerous times during previous fights with army and tribes. Of course, if Reno had gone on Weir's Peak then Custer might have ordered him to charge again. Yes they would have been two miles apart.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jun 18, 2019 11:53:56 GMT
Mac: Retrograde, by bounds, while in contact is the second most difficult tactical operation you can perform. The only thing that beats it in difficulty is breakout from encirclement. I disagree with you on this with the most difficult late 19th Century military operation being a cavalry assault on artillery. It could be done but at significant cost and required a quick follow up because the loss of artillery usually provoked an immense response. Horses could close far more quickly than infantry. Very high risk.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jun 18, 2019 13:00:16 GMT
Maybe he could have used Smoke Signals? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL On Sunday 25th June 1876, A.G. Bell was at Fairmont Park, Philadelphia, to demonstrate his voice telegraph equipment to the Brazilian Emperor. This small step for Bell was mankind's greatest leap. Brig-Gen. G.A. Custer said, in a letter to Capt. Norton, Chief Signal Officer, Army of the Potomac, dated Headquarters 8rd Division, Cavalry Corps, Dec. 10, 1863: — "Since I have become acquainted with the Signal Corps of this army, the information of the enemy obtained through its officers, and the rapid manner they have of transmitting intelligence by flag signals, has convinced me of the great value of this branch of the service during military operations in the field. An army can have no better outpost, from which to watch the movements of an enemy, than a signal station; and with a practised signal officer at such a position, no force can move without being detected. I would, therefore, strongly recommend that a complete and permanent organization be given to the Corps." The Signal Corps, U.S.A. in the War of the Rebellion by Brown, J. Willard (Joseph Willard) p198. Smoke signals would have been read by the enemy. Which can be great fun.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Jun 18, 2019 13:25:24 GMT
What the officers said played into their notion of Indians always run. So, were those Indians running around in circles masking the village or were they masking the buildup that was behind the initial screen? Reports say that there were approximately nine hundred Indians to Reno's front. Don't know how they reached that figure. I suspect it was a guesstimate, but nine hundred is about nine times the amount you would need to screen a village, and just about right for an immediate counterattack. Opposition to Reno's strike accumulated and did not present 'voila'. The Sioux fought him mounted and were not sat mounted awaiting his arrival when he arrived and were waiting for the herders to bring in the herds. There were herds running ahead of the battlion's advance and some say they (the ponies) kicked up some dust. The deployment invited attack as the horse holders, then one company and then one platoon of another, retired into the timber leaving less than fifty shooters online. DeRudio pulled the rest of Company A in then. One could argue this was a masterly example of bounding but neither Reno nor anyone else present, did so. Even then, the hostile Sioux did not make a frontal assault on the cavalry line as French fell back. That is not how they fought and examples of this (frontal assault) by Sioux are rarer that wolves with gold teeth.
|
|