mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Jun 14, 2019 11:43:02 GMT
The thing to remember here is that Reno was waiting for Custer to come in and support him. I assume that starting a retrograde movement into your support is bad form(?).
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 14, 2019 11:57:49 GMT
Morning Mac, I am not blaming Reno for anything he did in the valley, but when your battalion is forced to halt and fight a defensive action which is the only way it could wait for the planed support then you would wonder what was going on since that valley is wide open and no could see Custer anywhere. Once Reno started to syphon troops off the line and see threats to his left flank, I would have thought that getting mounted and moving back would be the best option rather than be forced into a a timber area which traps you against a river.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 14, 2019 14:49:55 GMT
Actually Mac, it worked like a charm at Cowpens. Morgan purposely told his first two ranks, made up of local militia, to fire two rounds and scatter pretending to retreat in disorder. The third line, Continental regulars, appeared at first to retreat as well, drawing Tarlton from an advancing posture into all out pursuit. The Continentals then did an about face and slaughtered Tarlton within minutes, and some say seconds. Today it is considered the greatest tactical victory ever by the U. S. Army
Normally it is bad form, causing all sorts of bad things to happen. If, however, it is a pre-planned action you are seemingly giving the enemy just what they want, until the point where you slam the front door in their face.
Wellington used a variation at Waterloo, where it appeared that the supporting echelons were pulling out signaling a general retreat. Fairly hard to pull off normally, but Wellington had the terrain on his side (the reverse slope) and Napoleon walked into Wellington's main line without realizing it was there.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 14, 2019 19:47:27 GMT
I am not taking Reno to task here but I thought we could run our thumb over just what he did during the valley fight.
I will write out my thoughts on what I think he could have done tomorrow, it includes how far he move on foot once dismounting, what he could see and how long it actually took from dismounting to moving to the timber.
Once again, I am not kicking the man as he had orders to fulfill plus the fog of war would have played a factor too. I think that some people say he could have held out longer, but I am trying to put forward that he held the skirmish line too long and the moving into the timber was a mistake.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 14, 2019 20:13:20 GMT
Love to hear your arguments Ian, but I suspect that had he not moved into the timber that his life span and that of his men would have been no later than 3:00 PM that afternoon. Moving into the timber is what saved him and provided cover for him to assemble, and execute his break out. You cannot do that on the open prairie. You must have some means to mask what you are doing and your future intentions. Can't do that out in the open.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 15, 2019 11:00:39 GMT
Yes, I get what you mean Chuck, not masking your movements does give your enemy an advantage in trying out maneuver you.
But it is here were Reno loses control, as it seems his focus shifted to the fear of Indians encroaching along his right flank through the timber. Both A and G had their horses in that area and they didn’t want to lose them. But this fear was unfounded and the main danger lay out on the left with Capt. French and M Company. This company was virtually left alone, this is were French proves that he was a good officer as he was the only one who kept his horses with him and not leave them in the timber.
Some say that M was stationed nearly a mile from the timber, so imagine having to retire to the timber on foot. Apparently two Company M troopers lost their mounts during the fighting, one somehow managed to reach the timber, the other one didn’t and they found his head in the village on a pole. Getting back to the point, would you as a battalion commander, simply syphon off your companies one by one into the timber, eventually leaving one company nearly a mile away holding a position which was only minutes away from being swamped?
I know that Reno was expecting Custer to support him but there must be a point when he, as a battalion commander, must realize that he was on his own here and facing an enemy which was growing stronger by the minute and threating to out flank him.
Reno dismounted his men near the timber and virtually walked them over 500 yards over open ground. I don’t know how long that would have taken, add that time to the time it took to ride down the valley from ford A and add to the time they spent in skirmish [some say this time in skirmish could be between 20 to 25 minutes as some companies fired off most of their ammo], so you could be looking at say 50 minutes since Reno had crossed the river and he had not seen any support at all.
So was Reno wrong to leave his horses in the timber? Should all three companies have kept their mounts in the same way as French kept his? This would have given Reno a option to turn tail before the Indians gathered enough strength to turn his left.
This maneuver may have made Reno look like a coward, but in fact in doing this he was still drawing the enemy out of his position and away from the village and keeping mounted would surly give him the mobility to keep his distance from his enemy and fight him later probably on better ground.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 15, 2019 15:33:38 GMT
I am not at all sure what the point is that you are trying to make Ian.
Reno went into the valley fully expecting timely help from Custer coming up from his rear. All his initial moves were based on that promise. The Indians reacted very quickly, and that reaction had all of the earmarks of a pre-planned counterattack. They were coming at Reno even before he was fully deployed on line with all three companies. It stands to reason then that the way the three were deployed was an answer to a visible threat.
As the threat grew he was forced to redeploy his force into the timber, and from that point conclude that his only salvation was to attempt a breakout from encirclement before his total force was destroyed in place. He executed such a maneuver resulting in both gaining high ground from which he could better defend, and saving the lives of the bulk of his command.
Losing control: I doubt if Jesus Christ Himself could have maintained better control than Reno in that same situation. That's not saying much because both were facing unorganized mayhem. You would be well to remember that all that are critical of Reno in the valley, and I am sure you know as well as I whom I mean, have never done what Reno was tasked to do, make those decisions and execute such a breakout even in training, because that is something rarely trained for. Reno did as good a job as humanly possible under these circumstances, and his detractors are nothing more than pigeon poop peddlers, unqualified to render any such opinion
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 15, 2019 16:02:01 GMT
It’s getting hard for me to explain here Chuck, but Reno was commanding three companies and he seemed obsessed with his right flank to the point that he kept sending companies in one after the other. I am not 100% sure here but did French actually get an order to move into the timber? If not, then Reno simply left them nearly a mile away hanging out to dry.
It does seem that the command and control of these battalions simply vanishes when things start to get hairy, look at the pull back from Weir, the first Godfrey knew was when he saw Companies pulling out, one of them virtually galloped past him.
Ali I am saying is that Reno should have realized that this position was going to get worse the longer he stayed on line and pulling back to the timber was initiated as an after thought due to Indians being reported in the trees, this made him pull units off the line, but if these units had their horses he could have pulled back his whole battalion, as I don’t think the Indians had at that point, rolled up his flank or were still keeping at a distance to his front.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 15, 2019 18:27:13 GMT
Well Ian, if he was not concerned with his right flank he was an idiot. It was in the timber on the right flank where all his horses were. They were there to protect them from fire.
French was a big boy who could take care of himself, but he was out there for a reason, to protect that left flank from an emerging threat.
So what is so strange to you about being concerned with emerging threats from both flanks?
Had Reno ordered that all the horses be held immediately behind his skirmish lines, a quarter to a half of them would be dead or wounded by fire I suspect. People have a tendency to fire high at the target their aiming at. Where would you think all that high fire is going to land?
Command and control vanishes: What do you expect from companies, formed into ad hoc battalions that have never trained together? Whose fault was that?
There is, in my opinion, no way that any sort of conventional, by bounds, retrograde could have been conducted from any skirmish line in that valley, with horses held immediately behind the line. As soon as the Indians saw Reno trying to remount, they would have surged forward and destroyed him.
My guess, and it is only that, is that Reno was still hoping for Custer to appear when he moved his battalion into the timber. Don't know if French was ordered there or not, but I am sure French could see what was happening, and would exercise good judgment. My belief is that Reno thought he could hold until Custer showed up, but the situation was getting more critical by the moment, and felt he must act immediately. Therefore I cannot fault him for acting, which was much more preferable than doing nothing when the situation became more dire. You can always recover from a defeat. You can never recover from dead, and those were his only two choices.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 15, 2019 19:01:34 GMT
Chuck, you read me wrong, Reno was not concerned about both flanks, only his right, by taking A and G off the line left a huge gap between M and the timber, they only just made it back to the timber in time before they would have been cut off. This was only made possible by the fact that they kept their horses. I must admit that I was surprised at just how far left French was, he was almost on the foot hills, nearly a mile away from the timber. Apparently many experts were also surprised that the skirmish line was so long until they found empty cartridge cases in the area.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 15, 2019 19:15:04 GMT
I don't misunderstand at all. I think it is you that misunderstands what I said
Company M was out there to guard against flanking on the left, while the concern with the timber was to address the threat from the right flank. So both flanks were a matter of concern.
Regardless of who drew the map, it was published in Wagner's book so he is responsible.
It was not all that long ago that Crow's Nest asked if anyone could specifically locate Reno's line on a map for him. No one could. So, do you think Wagner has the magic solution that seems to have eluded everyone else for a hundred and forty some years.?
You are basing all of your questions on what Wagner thinks, and what I am telling you is that Wagner only thinks he knows more than anyone else, and if you base your questions and opinions, your views and decisions, on what Wagner has to say you are ill advised. I keep telling everyone that Wagner's grasp of small unit tactics is quite well in line with my grasp of brain surgery, and several among you think I am being mean and engaging in personal attacks. It is not a personal attack to say that someone who steps in shit and thinks it is Shinola, is unfit to comment on either shit or Shinola.
One other thing that should be mentioned AGAIN. No one can understand battle until they first understand the men who engage in it. Reno was both an unknown quantity and disliked it seems by everyone except Hodgson. He had just been royally chewed out by two of his superior officers a few days before for what both perceived to be poor performance and bad judgment. If you think these thing do not get around in the small family that is a regiment, you are sadly mistaken. Confidence in him, by officers and enlisted men alike was pretty low. When confidence in a leader is in question, nothing that poor bastard does, good or bad, is enough. If it is good it is not good enough. If it is bad, bad is blown all out of proportion. Everything you do is suspect. Your every move is criticized. That was the situation Reno found himself in on the afternoon of 25 June. A unit with that type ball and chain secured to it is no damned good to anyone. Study the sterile qualities of moving squads, platoons, and companies if you will, but to really understand battle, the whys and wherefores, you must know the men. Why do you think that Reno essentially took a "time out" once he reached the bluffs. He had lost what he considered his best friend, and while looking for Hodgson at that point was the wrong thing to do, it was also perfectly understandable. Men fight battles, people that have all of the traits and failures common to human kind. They are not machines.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 16, 2019 9:47:09 GMT
fred explains apocalypse. erm, weren't there four horsemen? At 3o seconds in check the horizon, left side and left of the Weir Point pimple. Up 300, talk for effect! Hope you are well fred. Reno performed poorly in the valley but managed to save a half or so of his battalion at the expense of those two fighting to the north. I think that that that, is that.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 16, 2019 13:25:27 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Jun 16, 2019 15:09:38 GMT
If I am supposed to be able to identify a horseman on the ridge top why is it I cannot tell the make and model of those automobiles driving across that ridge top.
"You can pretty much tell by the uniforms. Everyone wore different uniforms." What the f**k. And you people read this guy's book?
HR: Please tell me in as much detail as you can muster how Reno could have saved Custer, given the situation Reno found himself in when he reached the top of the bluffs? Keep in mind when you relate this to all of us that by the time Reno reached the bluffs Custer was already cut off from behind in everyone's scenario.
Then if you will be so good provide for me a laundry list of tasks that Reno would have to accomplish, with or without Benteen's arrival, before he could move forward to assist Custer? Then please give me an approximate time it would take to accomplish those tasks? The professional term is consolidate, reorganize, and redistribute.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 16, 2019 19:15:55 GMT
Tom, why are all the books so bloody expensive, fifty sheets is a lot money, hell we can get a week in spain all in a 4 star hotel including room, food, drinks, transfers from the airport and back and flights for 500 quid for the two of us. I would be lucky to buy 10 books off amazon for that price
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