|
Post by quincannon on Dec 1, 2018 18:09:53 GMT
Maybe, maybe not. I would think it would largely depend on the tale they had to tell, and their previous reputation, if any, they had within the regiment.
You could take it as a given that none of them are going to say I deserted my post and ran like hell. The act of returning might work in their favor. There was no one alive that could actually testify against them, and state that they ran. I doubt if charges could be made against them and have them stick, but when you are out there wandering alone, you really don't know that. Humans have a tendency to think the worst first.
More than likely, regardless of circumstance they would be looked upon by their fellow soldiers, the ones that lost friends, as cowards and deserters, and their lives made miserable. That, when combined with survivor's guilt insures their life will not be the same from that moment on.
Most humans desire to be a part of something bigger than themselves. That's why people join clubs, why the young are sometimes drawn to gangs, why people attend church in preference to worshiping unto themselves. We desire the approval and companionship of others. In the military this sense of wanting to belong is utilized as a tool, the glue to train units, and make and keep them cohesive. Take that sense of belonging away and in many cases you have ruined a person's life.
The take away here, is that you can study personalities, organizations, motivations, individual and unit actions, numbers, weapons, and anything else that may pertain to this or any battle, but if you do not understand the human component, (what makes people tick), you are in large measure wasting your time, in spite of your efforts, because you will never really understand battle
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 2, 2018 12:59:15 GMT
Chuck, my "fairly" comment was not to give your answer short shrift, and I did not consider escapees. Your answers were on point to Terry's questions. I took a different tack, background music, as to why the commander appeared to have tunnel vision.
Regarding, escapees, there were at least 4 bodies discussed being found off "Park Land." Two around the Trading Post, not far away, one on Custer Creek, a bit further on, and one found some miles away near the Yellowstone. The last however was not a body, but a dead horse with 7th brand, tack, and carbine. I have also heard some discussion of a 7th horse carcass and human body near the Rosebud. Steve may have more on this.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 2, 2018 15:19:47 GMT
Never considered it as anything other than what it said Tom - fairly complete.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Dec 2, 2018 23:06:31 GMT
Terry I think you have had a full answer.
As you look through the threads you will see we are developing an understanding of the flow and timing of this part of the battle.
Please keep contributing and questioning.
If we look at the warrior accounts some suggest Custer could have escaped if he had left as soon as he reached the high ground. This, of course, is one participants view of the events. We know from other accounts that one group, I say Company L, did leave as soon as they reached the high ground.
The swift movement of the Cheyenne warriors around the right flank of the cavalry, look at the topography and the water courses and you will see why this is easy, effectively completed the northern part of a double envelopment very quickly.
As the warrior numbers increase and the cavalry numbers on BRE decrease there is a spiral towards tactical disintegration. The warrior accounts suggest that the fall of LSH was basically a case of warriors charging up the hill and finishing off those left, with the small number of men able to flee moving down to Company E on CR. A temporary escape!
Cheers
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 3, 2018 12:21:04 GMT
I will still stick to the principle that the Custer battalion went north because a large body of Indians where on the move and because of this they had to get in front of them, this was their mission in Custer's eyes anyway.
The only way Custer knew that Reno had failed, would be via Boston, now if Boston was following the battalions main trail, then he may have kept clear of the edge of the bluffs, which could mean that he never saw what was happening in the valley, which would be secondary to him, his main goal was catching up with his relatives.
Now back to the move north; the Custer battalion would, I expect, be moving in a loose formation, maybe with a company well out in front and the others in various positions, but not as a tight unit, I think that Reno's battalion rode up the valley in company columns with up 40 to 50 yards between them and this was on a level playing field, Custer was on sloping and uneven ground.
When they reached ford D, the advanced company would obviously have reached the ford before the others and if this unit took fire, then this would I imagine, have an effect on the others, this would be a nasty surprise to Custer, who would have found too many Indians to deal with, don't forget we could be looking at figures up to 4000 in this area and if a 800 of these were armed then a paltry 200 soldiers would have little effect against them.
This is when the battalion wheeled around and the order given to head to the high ground. Now we could be looking at five units here all acting under the orders of the HQ detail and given the distances between the units then it would be difficult to issue any verbal orders, so they just wanted to get clear and this is why they shifted back and stopped on the high ground so that the HQ could take stock of the situation and issue orders on what to do next. This pause would give the Indians the time they needed to get around the soldiers.
So I think that Custer issued orders to make it back south because he still believed that the path would still be relatively clear, so there was no need to head off east because I think he thought that Reno and Benteen where still active and wanted to take steps to unite with them, but the Indians had beaten him to the punch and when he realized this it was too late.
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Dec 3, 2018 14:07:11 GMT
This is a very likely scenario, Yan. It is possible, even though we know Wolf Tooth was harassing the battalion before reaching ford D. I tend to believe Boston didn't see anything of Reno, as he was in a big hurry to reach George, and probably had nothing to report to him other than Benteen was back on the main trail, heading toward the point where Reno split from Custer.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Dec 3, 2018 19:35:39 GMT
Terry welcome to the board. This place is is about learning and discussing and you like you are in over your head. I am in the position of having to relearn what I used to know after a long break--and I've been since day one. I hope to see you posting more.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 3, 2018 19:40:07 GMT
Colt we are singing from the same hymn sheet.
I know I keep on relating to Reno, but I do think it is important that what Custer did was nothing to do with saving Reno. I am sure that some of the survivors from the valley fight said that once they reached Reno hill then the firing from up the valley towards Custer, started not long after they arrived.
DeRudio himself said they heard the volleys and this had an effect on the Indians because the valley started to empty soon after with some crossing over the river and scaling the bluffs and some just heading right back down the valley to the village.
So if the skirmish in the valley lasted from start to finish, around 40 minutes, then how far could Custer have got after he first saw the village from the bluffs, don't forget there is no mention of Reno fighting in the valley at this point, so by the time Reno had reached Reno hill, Custer had already ridden passed him 40 minutes earlier.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Dec 3, 2018 19:43:26 GMT
Great to see you back Beth, I know we have all missed you!
|
|
colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
|
Post by colt45 on Dec 3, 2018 22:54:50 GMT
Yan, I agree with you that Custer was not doing anything to save Reno. He most likely didn't know he was in trouble, and his engagement with the hostiles was in his own defense, not to draw heat from Reno. Quite the opposite, Reno was meant to draw heat away from Custer, leaving the hostile flank or rear open to his attack. That was the plan but it didn't work that way.
Knowing Custer was moving fast, he would have been at least at LNC or further north when Reno broke out and headed for the bluffs. The firing Derudio describes was most likely the firing from the LNC positions, or maybe from the Calhoun hill area.
|
|
tja
Civilian
Posts: 13
|
Post by tja on Dec 3, 2018 23:12:23 GMT
Thanks for the quick replies to my questions. I especially like QC’s comment that had Custer escaped and thus Reno been destroyed when the Indians renewed their interest in him, nobody would be discussing “Reno’s last stand.” Kind of funny how Reno saved (with Benteen’s help) his command, Custer lost his entire command and Reno spends the rest of his life defending himself and Custer is mostly glorified. Also, thanks for the welcomes. While I am still over my head, I am on here almost everyday and hope to contribute now and again. Regards, Terry
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 3, 2018 23:27:51 GMT
Terry: As you wander around this board, always keep in mind that sound tactics, and practicing good sound common sense are side by side fellow travelers.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Dec 3, 2018 23:46:29 GMT
Thanks for the quick replies to my questions. I especially like QC’s comment that had Custer escaped and thus Reno been destroyed when the Indians renewed their interest in him, nobody would be discussing “Reno’s last stand.” Kind of funny how Reno saved (with Benteen’s help) his command, Custer lost his entire command and Reno spends the rest of his life defending himself and Custer is mostly glorified. Also, thanks for the welcomes. While I am still over my head, I am on here almost everyday and hope to contribute now and again. Regards, Terry Life is full of irony, isn't it. I think that the difference is that Custer had a beautiful widow who was willing to take up the baton of making Custer great and Reno did not. Beyond that Reno was just not that likable of a person, sometimes people can be their own worse enemies.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Dec 14, 2018 17:31:37 GMT
I have often thought that the best example of the Custer battalion tactical breakdown, in terms of what we would see from a vantage point high overhead, would be like dropping an Alka Seltzer tablet in a cool glass of water.
The tablet enters the water whole, and withing a few seconds breaks apart and dissolves. Now if one could change the few seconds to a period of minutes before the dissolving process starts, then one would have a fairly accurate picture of what actually occurred. Nothing really organized, above the company level, (the breaking apart), followed by a quick dissolving of combat power.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 8:55:19 GMT
You just described what happens when a swarm strikes a target. It destroys the unit's cohesion and ability to react. A few years late on my part, but what the hell.
|
|