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Post by yanmacca on Oct 25, 2018 8:42:58 GMT
Of course Steve, you are totally correct about the firing in on Luce, N/C area. I must admit that the work done on this area was a real eye opener to me, as the amount of firing that took place in this region is sadly missed by others. The amount of firing shows that Custer was more engaged then previously thought and if what Wolftooth said is correct, his band only came across the soldiers after they left the ridges. Didn't he say that when he arrived, the soldier's when going out of sight down a coulee? So that sounds to me like the firing on the ridges had ceased and the column had progressed north. So who were they firing at? So many rounds expelled against who!?
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mac
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Post by mac on Oct 25, 2018 11:13:38 GMT
All interesting questions Ian. Returning to our discussion of movements and flankers in this case. I am looking at the Maguire Map on page 26 of "Battle Lines". It is his first map, presumably made soon after he arrived 2 days after the battle. It shows no trail along near greasy Grass; just one trail east of battle Ridge and the South Skirmish line. map 2 (dated July 2) is on page 31 and similarly shows only those two trails. Map 3 (page 34) is later still and suddenly has three trails with the new addition running along the west side of Battle Ridge and past the head cuts of the ravines (like Deep Ravine). I need to read more but I am wondering about the quality of the evidence for a trail along in front of GG where the markers are. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 25, 2018 15:28:56 GMT
Mac, as you know, Maguire kept changing his map as more and more data arrived, here are just four of his maps from my hard drive;
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 25, 2018 20:26:32 GMT
All interesting questions Ian. Returning to our discussion of movements and flankers in this case. I am looking at the Maguire Map on page 26 of "Battle Lines". It is his first map, presumably made soon after he arrived 2 days after the battle. It shows no trail along near greasy Grass; just one trail east of battle Ridge and the South Skirmish line. map 2 (dated July 2) is on page 31 and similarly shows only those two trails. Map 3 (page 34) is later still and suddenly has three trails with the new addition running along the west side of Battle Ridge and past the head cuts of the ravines (like Deep Ravine). I need to read more but I am wondering about the quality of the evidence for a trail along in front of GG where the markers are. Cheers
The first done on July 2 was the preliminary map which went along with the preliminary report. The map with increased details was completed 8 days later on July 10 it accompanied the final report. Whether there are markers or bodies the travel corridor still exists it is a terrain feature. It use would be evidenced by markers and artifacts.
I would think the same could be said of the line east of BR. It would be more likely to be impacted by Indian use since it is in area where the companies were fixed and destroyed. You can see it most obvious from CR and from F-F.
The same can be said of BRE. It looks like a travel corridor and discoveries of Indian sites and cavalry sites suggest it was used during the battle. The old road artifacts suggest activity up to the Administrative site on CR.
So if you were going to move north you may want to have someone on your west flank on higher ground. There are artifacts consistent with it occurring. I believe the red C on GG occurs after the retrograde from the north. So there were more likely more Indians engaged from GG later on.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 25, 2018 20:32:12 GMT
If all companies end up on LSH before moving north what is the issue with E taking the western travel corridor as suggested by Curley, and supported by Martin and Thompson?
Martin claims to be within 600 yards of MTC and he shows his location of turning back to Benteen. Seems it could not be a later false recollection. I believe Benteen concurs that the location Martin showed him was within 600 yards. I believe I recollect this correctly but I am getting old now so that's my excuse if wrong.
Regards
Steve
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mac
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Post by mac on Oct 25, 2018 23:10:36 GMT
"I am getting old now so that's my excuse if wrong. " Likewise! My point has been that the bodies in front of GG ridge leading to Deep Ravine are fleeing Company C men from FF ridge and that a trail there could be made by them. I also think the possibility is that the C shaped artifact field on GG is related to movement by warriors as they orient to follow this flight of soldiers. An earlier use of this corridor by Company E on the way north is another question. Maguire not noticing this trail initially, worries me. I could imagine that Custer would want flankers on the west side of Battle Ridge as he moves north. I would buy that for the trail Maguire shows later along the line high on the west of Battle Ridge. This is not (I think) the travel corridor down low past GG ridge and through Deep Ravine. What of the possibility that the bulk of Company E took this higher trail flanking the advance north and a small number of them dropped closer to the river as a recon along that portion of the river? Does this fly tactically? Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 26, 2018 11:00:05 GMT
Mac, immediately after the battle the activity was frenetic, what with burials, the wounded care, destroying materials, and preparing to move out. I have no issues with the map updating, he probably had the opportunity to speak with both Benteen and Godfrey who had identified travel corridors. Maguire was simply trying to be as accurate and complete as he could be. Those 7th officers were all over the field with burial details and under orders from Terry to supply their reports.
Regards, Tom
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 26, 2018 15:32:54 GMT
"I am getting old now so that's my excuse if wrong. " Likewise! My point has been that the bodies in front of GG ridge leading to Deep Ravine are fleeing Company C men from FF ridge and that a trail there could be made by them. I also think the possibility is that the C shaped artifact field on GG is related to movement by warriors as they orient to follow this flight of soldiers. An earlier use of this corridor by Company E on the way north is another question. Maguire not noticing this trail initially, worries me. I could imagine that Custer would want flankers on the west side of Battle Ridge as he moves north. I would buy that for the trail Maguire shows later along the line high on the west of Battle Ridge. This is not (I think) the travel corridor down low past GG ridge and through Deep Ravine. What of the possibility that the bulk of Company E took this higher trail flanking the advance north and a small number of them dropped closer to the river as a recon along that portion of the river? Does this fly tactically? Cheers It doesn't worry me at all. A preliminary map and report most likely does not have all the details that have been discovered. It is not intended to do anything but to provide the beginning of a knowledge transfer from those there to those that have a need to know. Adding details in a 8 day map and final report is expected rather than a surprise to me.
So the larger locations of companies would give a general impression of how things ended and the various scattered bodies would be added detail.
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 26, 2018 15:35:06 GMT
Mac
When Curley states E Company went further down MTC toward the Big Village and the others went across what do you think he is describing?
Steve
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 26, 2018 18:15:34 GMT
Steve, Don't keep us in suspense.
Regards, Tom
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 26, 2018 18:30:05 GMT
Steve, Don't keep us in suspense. Regards, Tom I think it reflects the use of the western corridor. I don't think that from F-F you would travel that far west to join those in Deep Ravine for whatever reason. You can head north and use the edge of Calhoun Coulée for cover. I don't think they moved that way at all. If they were stopped they would fall back on L and I believe that is why Keogh gets blamed for moving out to drive back the Indians when that is not what he was doing. I think he was trying to open the route to MTC by going south west instead of going through Henryville and back the route they came over.
Steve
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mac
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Post by mac on Oct 27, 2018 11:55:38 GMT
I think this deserves a thread of its own so I am starting one on Movements of Company E.
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