Company C movements

[mac]

Oct 18, 2018 3:10:48 GMT quincannon said:

Something to think about.

When you attack, the attack focuses on the same thrust line, but not necessarily (in fact rarely) at the same point. In fact the attacking array usually contains a main attack, a supporting attack, and a reserve.

Make no mistake, the objective was clearly to retrograde, but the method of retrograde was the hasty attack.

So, what we may have with C and L is main and supporting attacks, with Company I as an intended reserve. Two points of contact, but attacking  along the same axis.

We cannot answer this with any certainty because whatever they were doing ended on Calhoun Hill and FF Ridge.

I have proposed before that leaving the valley at Ford D Custer may have ordered Company L immediately back towards Calhoun Hill to secure a passage to cross back towards Reno and the notion of the retrograde being formed as a "hasty attack" does look possible. Can you enlarge on the orientations that could/would be part of such an attack as a means of breaking back towards Reno?

Cheers

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac, I am going to agree with the traditionalists here, maybe. Lets say GAC was thinking ahead and left CIL on Battle Ridge to look for Benteen and the packs. He also could have moved them to BRE, for the dual purpose of supporting his advance on the northern fords while looking out for and to support Benteen and the packs if required. I know this may be a reach, but what the heck. Or, maybe one company was left in the Calhoun area. When GAC attempts to break contact the other two are sent back help to open the way. The fact is that they are all dead and never could be asked.

I am still of the opinion that they all moved forward/north to one degree or another. The fact remains that there was a north to south battle flow to one degree or another and more action in the Ford D area than the traditionalist will agree to. Your visit to the battlefield and research, Steve's research, and my reading of Godfrey has certainly opened my mind. I think the Cheyenne's held the key to this portion of the battle and may still hold the key. JSIT and Gordon Harper certainly indicate that. Many may not know that Gordon spent time living on the Cheyenne Reservation.

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

I too reckon that Crazy Horse came through deep coulee, why? well lets look at it from his eyes, he returns from the Reno fight in the knowledge that more soldiers where threatening the village from a different direction. Riding back he comes across braves using ford B to attack soldiers on the ridges on the east side of the river, so he also takes this route to get stuck in!

Can anyone see Crazy saying to his band of 200 mounted warriors [is this true by the way, did have this amount braves?], no lets not cross here, we will be better riding on and finding another crossing point.

I think that deep ravine is over rated in the grand scheme of the battle, sure fighting took place there, but I don't think that it is feasible to think that this avenue was used for a sanctuary for E Company men, a target for any break out from LSH and full mounted charge by 200 mounted Indians.

[yanmacca]

Tom, a few Indian accounts [not many] say that Custer left a rear guard of one company on Calhoun hill before he moved north, maybe this company was only set to delay encroaching Indians which had gathered in MTC, ford B and deep coulee.

It is the only position which has a gully which was named as a place to stash the horses [horse holders ravine] so this was a well thought out defensive action, which by all accounts gave the Indians a headache for period of time.

It is impossible to say however if this company was supposed to pull out after the column got a head start and ended up getting fixed or it was a permanent fixture with orders to hold.

It does seem sad if its sole reason was to wait for Benteen, as I don't think he would have made it because he only went over the bluffs because a few Indian scouts told him to go in that direction and pointing him to Reno hill.

[mac]

Waiting for Benteen makes no sense to me since the note asks Benteen (twice) to bring the packs. Custer would know how slowly the packs moved and could never have expected Benteen to reach him in any timely way with any of the packs. So even if we agree to change the note to say ammunition packs, which it certainly does not (I have seen illiterates, presumably, write it that way) I still say Custer would know that with any packs in tow Benteen was not arriving any time soon.

Also if you are needing to wait for Benteen then just wait, do not make it much, much harder for him to get to you.

This leaves us with him going to Ford B and then retiring to Calhoun Hill. Three problems here

First it is tactically daffy and dumb, so I reject it and all the reasons people suggest for it.

Second it is the only place on the battle field where there is no archaeology to suggest there was any fighting there.

Third there is no account describing the action by anyone who was demonstrably there to actually see it.

Reading this it kinda sounds angry, which I am not (I love you Tom..you know in a manly kind of way ).

Cheers

[mac]

Take look at the Bonafedes map that Ian posted earlier and look at the warrior traces on south end of GG Ridge. How might you account for the crescent shape?

First the W now the C.

What do we think?

Cheers

[yanmacca]

Mac, here is a better shot of that area, also I have included another finds map which covers all those Indian shell cases.
On the finds map you will see that each item is labeled to indicate what that item is, example;

IWC: Indian Weapon Cartridge
IWB: Indian Weapon Bullet
AWC: Army Weapon Cartridge
AWB: Army Weapon Cartridge

The Indian cartridges are there in abundance, but I have have put a blue ring around the army bullets found around the greasy grass area to show that these Indian shooters where taking incoming fire too. [believe me, the picture on the left looks better when opened]

[mac]

Interesting groupings Ian. Thanks for this. Think time needed.

Cheers

[yanmacca]

You will also notice that some of the finds on greasy grass ridge are also cartridges fired from army carbines, which would either mean captured weapons from the Reno battle being used to shoot at the soldiers on FFR or maybe flankers from a cavalry unit which had rode that way and fired off a few rounds, but more then likely captured weapons from Reno.

That finds map does come with a key and as you can see if covers quite a lot of the field in general. It is too large to scan in one go, but if anyone needs a certain area doing, I can try to scan and post it.

[azranger]

Do we know how many weapons and ammunition was captured at the Battle of the Rosebud?

I would think if Curley is correct about the Gray Horses the could have wanted to have some hold that position as they moved north. That would mean early cavalry and later Indians. I think we see the same on the BRE site with both cavalry and Indian occupation.

Artifacts are not timing sensitive they could be minutes, hours, or years apart in time.

Regards

Steve

[mac]

Ian this is your Key
IWC: Indian Weapon Cartridge
IWB: Indian Weapon Bullet
AWC: Army Weapon Cartridge
AWB: Army Weapon Cartridge

Please check AWB is it Army Weapon Cartridge or Bullet?
Also what is ABU?
Cheers

[yanmacca]

My apologies Mac, I rushed that one mate, a school boy error on my part, ''he who posts in haste, will repent at leisure''

Anyway here is the second part of key to the map, which should answer all your questions;

[yanmacca]

You can easily see why early observers thought that the south skirmish line was a defensive position as here is an image of the markers and another map showing the finds;

[deadwoodgultch]

Mac, first, let me say thank you for the love above. We seem to have competing thread side by side working on the same things. I know that we started here with a focus on C Company and have gone a wee bit afield. We obviously don't have our theory nailed down, but, neither do the traditionalists. Custer went to Ford D, and for CN, I don't think got within 50 ft/yds of the river before the Cheyenne's bloodied his nose. Lets assume that one company was left near Calhoun Hill to keep the back door closed and lookout for the packs. Pressure builds and Custer sends 2 companies back to take the pressure off and open the way for all to return south. Imagine if you will LWM to the Cavalry's left , Gall in the Center, CH on the right, all arrayed against CIL and all cutting GAC's return south off, with the Cheyenne's up his butt. One of many maybes.

I can't fathom only two going north.

Regards,
Tom

[mac]

On Greasy Grass finds top of the page, there are 6 ABU which is Army Button!!

Thoughts?