mac
Brigadier General
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Post by mac on Oct 16, 2018 9:43:20 GMT
I have a broad view of how I see the movements on Company C. Obviously I see them moving with Custer all the way to Ford D.
I believe that in the valley at Ford D the company nearest the river, in line with warrior accounts, was Company E. I think, discussion welcome, that Company C may have been not far from them. I base this on my idea of the positions on BRE and CR after the withdrawal from the valley. I believe Company E were on CR, headquarters were on LSH and Company C were on BRE nearest LSH with Company I north of C and then Company F at the point furthest north. Company L, in line with accounts, had ridden straight over Battle Ridge immediately, and were already moving to the south. From this positioning Company C were the next to leave BRE and move south.
Tom Custer we know either opted to hand over command to Harrington and stay on LSH or was already dead or incapacitated on LSH. Discussion of this could be best done in the thread Mystery of Tom Custer.
Company C moved down the "back" of Battle Ridge until they reached Calhoun Hill. By this time Company L was heavily engaged in skirmish line at Calhoun Hill. Seeing warriors on Finley Finkle Ridge threatening the right flank of Company L, Company C rode down and deployed along FF Ridge. As soon as they dismounted they were "hit" in the right flank by warriors from Greasy Grass Ridge led by Lame White Man.
Men from the right end of the Company C deployment retreated north, along in front of Greasy Grass Ridge (the line of markers seen there), and some made it as far as the Deep Ravine drainage basin. These men, markers to the river side of Deep Ravine, now explain to me some early maps that show Company C in Deep Ravine basin. It was the identification of these men that gave an impression of a deployment there, but it is in fact the last point of their retreat from FF Ridge.
Men from the left end of the Company C deployment on FF Ridge retreated back along the ridge towards Company L. The step in FF Ridge where there are a small cluster of markers is the point where an attempt was made to halt the warrior flank attack.
The men of Company C covered a lot of ground that day and are thus found all along the "sides" of the warrior envelopment of Custer's 5 companies. Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 16, 2018 10:14:48 GMT
Wow, I am now fair to partly cloudy on these movements. I think I understand your thought process. I agree that C moved to cover L's flank on a move south and is blown up. I have always felt C was "Tail end Charlie" on move north. I also feel they were on BRE, not down near river, if in fact there was a deployment there. I could go on with why's but I should listen to more. I will be happy to supply my reasoning as we go along. Look forward to this playing out.
Regards, Tom
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 16, 2018 10:32:01 GMT
Tom I would love to hear your whys and reasons for your ideas. I also would like it if you and AZ were to think this stuff through "on the ground" one year. The valley location is just because I cannot yet sort out Tom Custer. I also need to do some looking in accounts for horse colours to help with this. So I could easily be convinced on them staying out of the valley.
Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 16, 2018 11:28:06 GMT
Benteen himself could have been behind the idea of C Company falling around the same area as E, F and the HQ, as I recall I posted up a segment of what Benteen said when he reached the area around deep ravine, I can't recall it word for word but it should be still up in the index, but as I seem to remember he mentioned E being in a ravine and also C company in the same area with the HQ close bye.
Also as I recall, the skirmish line on FFR, fired off quite a few rounds before it fell, I am sure it was carbine rounds, which may mean that the targets where not yet in pistol range, as these weapons are for close order fighting. I will have to check on the cartridge cases on FFR and if any where from colt pistols, if no cases are found for these pistols, then it could mean two things, that they broke before using their revolvers or had no time to draw them. Certainly some short of short range fighting should have taken place on that ridge and we have the markers to prove it.
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 16, 2018 13:53:25 GMT
Hopefully Tom will stay out of his wash this year and we can go see stuff. This year I was all over Luce and N/C along with MTC and the drainages leading from Weir to MTC.
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Post by quincannon on Oct 16, 2018 17:53:27 GMT
Most probably Company C moved from the north after Company L. but Company C moving first cannot be dismissed out of hand.
It could very well be that Company C moved first, in that we do not have a firm handle on just how long their skirmish line on FFR was maintained. The fact remains that they were the further from the original deployment area of the main body in the north. Being the last in line, or rear guard, in the movement north, as Tom suggests, would make it quite logical for Company C to also be the first out.
I concur with Mac, in that the six or seven markers in front of Greasy Grass Ridge were moving toward Deep Ravine, and the most likely explanation for me is that they were Company C men attempting to escape from FFR mounted, which would further explain the relative long distance of that line of markers, several hundred to a thousand meters that so troubles Steve. The typical procedure for a single company in the situation Company C found itself in on FFR, would be to dismount and form as skirmishers. That would leave six or seven soldiers still mounted as horse holders, and moving those horses to the nearest defilade position, which I believe would be the back side of FFR on the lip of Calhoun Coulee. I believe it is relatively easy to see how they could have temporarily escaped, if the thrust line of Lame White Man's assault was directly over the ridge. Such an escape route might look good to them, but reality tells us that the only thing they accomplished was stepping out of the frying pan and into the fire from Greasy Grass Ridge, and close pursuit.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 16, 2018 18:47:56 GMT
I think that there was a lack of colt cases found around the supposed area of engagement of C, I can only find two cases, which would mean that because these revolvers were a pig to reload, the soldiers never got a chance to reload their pistols. Mac, if you where either Calhoun or Harrington and you arrived first, would you choose either Calhoun hill or FFR. I suppose it would be down to how far the hostiles had advanced and if they where mainly on greasy grass hill then would FFR be a the best place to engage rather then Calhoun hill? If the hostiles had already occupied deep coulee in strength and where advancing up the slope to battle ridge, then would Calhoun hill be better to halt the progress then FFR? Here is an enlargement of the area;
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Post by quincannon on Oct 16, 2018 20:24:37 GMT
Ian: If you make the assumption that Company C arrived first, then where they were on FFR would compliment Steve's horseman's opinion that the best route of retrograde south would be the axis LSH-Calhoun Hill-FFR- Weir Point, and from there southward to join the regiments (new) main body, Reno/Benteen/Trains, thus avoiding the problematic terrain of L-N-C. L-N-C might offer advantage to those approaching in terms of masking, but it is a damn poor place to try and retrograde over. The route I suggested is no bed of roses either, but far better than L-N-C.
I therefor concur with Steve as to proposed route of retrograde.
Company I being second could very well have been initially a second attempt to bust through, that being most likely because of their low down initial skirmish line position, or the second possibility is flank protection for Company C. If you look at that enlarged map of yours, it could very well have worked either way with C leading and L following, or the reverse, L leading and C following.
This needs much more exploration. Company L leading would mean the L-N-C route, and while once sure, I am beginning to have doubt.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 16, 2018 22:25:40 GMT
I always come back to archaeology, warrior accounts, and military thinking.
Archaeology says Company L was first in skirmish lower on Calhoun Hill and gradually moved back up the slope. This is consistent with the accounts of both Gall and Red Hawk. The reason for this route of return south, to me, is simply that it is the way they came and so the only piece of ground that they actually know (military thinking).
For FF Ridge the archaeology shows very little cavalry firing which is consistent with the account that as soon as they began to dismount LWM called for a charge from GG Ridge (consistent with archaeology). If Company C came from Battle Ridge down to FF ridge (warrior accounts) and dismounted as they deployed on FF Ridge then it would be likely that those at the Calhoun Hill (left flank) end would arrive and be dismounted first. Men on the right flank (GG Ridge) would barely have arrived when set upon by the warriors and so may still be holding their horses and have time to re mount. Those (left flank) already dismounted on the ridge would account for the defence of the step (cluster of markers) further left along the ridge.
Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 16, 2018 23:01:15 GMT
Mac. I am enjoying the interplay here. I find Chucks insight loaded with answers, do they end questions, surely not. Let me digress, why do I see C being in the rear, at least for the initial move north, Knipe says Tom Custer sent him back, to get the pack train, and the troopers that fall out come from C. There is no confusion in the stories of any of them. If they were being followed by another company or companies I don't think that would have happened. Some have stipulated that Knipe may have lied, I say prove it. Would he have been so stupid as to have said Tom Custer had sent him, I think not. What if Tom had lived, Knipe may have died. So I put C last and T.C. with them at this point. More to come if required.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Oct 16, 2018 23:53:00 GMT
Concur with Tom regarding the position of Company C in the march north, and the interplay between Kanipe and Tom Custer. Kanipe is labeled as a liar by all those who believe that Tom was shoveling shit for his brother. Only them. The reason being they have no imagination nor insight into military protocol. No one that was there in the aftermath had Tom anywhere but with his company. Where he was found is easily explained by at least three reasons - wounded, dead, or ordered to stay for some unknown purpose.
Mac: Military Thinking - He who returns by the same route from whence he came is an idiot, just asking to be ambushed --- Robert Rogers
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on Oct 17, 2018 3:45:36 GMT
Tom I agree completely with your reasoning for that portion of the journey, which is prior to first contact.
Wolf Tooth says that Company E were the rear on Battle Ridge, and after that I am guessing (more of that later or elsewhere).
How could I forget Rogers or his rules QC?
My thinking is that, in this case, it is breaking contact and not a time to scout a new route, especially on ground that is quite hard to "read". The direction is largely determined by the penetration of warriors north around their right flank, past BRE, and thus to their east. This just leaves a southern retreat.
On that idea (hard to read) I sometimes wonder if someone from Company C tried to deploy out on Greasy Grass Ridge...oops! Any evidence for this? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Oct 17, 2018 5:20:21 GMT
Didn't think so Mac.
"He who forgets the wisdom of Robert Rogers has no damned business studying warfare in any form or fashion and should stick to something they are familiar with - Tiddly Winks, Marbles, and playing in the backyard sandbox" ----Quincannon
There is merit in consideration of the L-N-C retrograde route. Given a choice the Calhoun Hill to Weir Point Axis would be the best route to take. The key words there are 'given the choice'. We don't know if that choice was offered.
About the Company C skirmish line: Was it not part of the Indian's narratives that when the soldiers first arrived the Indians were driven back, and it was Lame White Man, fresh from the north, that rallied them, and led them in a counterattack?. If my memory is correct, then how would that square with Red Hawk and Gall, both Sioux, and Lame White Man Cheyenne. Reminds me of a couple of incidents in Korea, where the 1st Marine Brigade had to pull the Army's hash out of the fire to the embarrassment of Eighth Army leadership. Oddly enough Army and Marine historians did not quite see eye to eye about the course of the same event.
Now look at the map Ian posted. There is something I never noticed. Look at Henryville and the initial Company L skirmish position. If you busted through Henryville you are in Deep Coulee, and heading away from FFR. Ian please extend the map to show what you already have but extend it to Weir Point.
Ian: I am very concerned over why you are having so much trouble with where Kellogg's body was found. Bonafides tells you exactly where it was found, and Bonafides' notation to that effect is on the map that you posted on the other board. It is not within that yellow circle you drew, and two things come to mind. Wagner did not understand your question or Wagner does not know his ass from apple pie. I suspect it is the former rather than the latter. It is in a ravine near the mouth of that ravine and very close to the river. Gibbon's account is very clear where he found Kellogg. Bonafides is also clear as to where it was. I have never been to the location of that early marker, but following Steve's description of its location I think I could find the place blindfolded. It is that easy to determine the original Kellogg marker location. Now I don't know if that ravine is named for Crazy Horse, buy some idiot that did not know where Crazy Horse actually was, or if it is named for Thunderthud the resident hostile of Doodyville. What is important is that Kellogg was found at only one place, and it is that place that gives us insights into the fire and maneuver of this portion of the battle.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2018 9:29:42 GMT
QC, The Bonafide map I have scanned dose not extend in that order, so the only way I can do that is to post it in two parts;
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2018 9:33:00 GMT
I asked on the other board in response to how the battlefield has changed, I cant recall who posed the question initially but Fred and Tom where throwing things into the mix, so I joined in, I added Kellogg as an after thought to see if I could get a good idea of where Fred said his body was found in relation to the Bonafide image.
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