|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2018 9:34:59 GMT
I see that Kanipe has been resurrected again, so I have found this paragraph which gives a position for C in the column plus the position of TWC;
C Company led the charge down to the Little Bighorn—such as it was. Finkle had trouble keeping up, probably because his height and weight imposed a heavy burden on his horse; he was the tallest enlisted man in the 7th Cavalry and one of the heaviest. “I was riding close to Sergeant Finkle,” Sergeant Daniel Kanipe remembered in 1924. “We were both close to Capt. Tom Custer. Finkle hollered at me that he couldn’t make it, his horse was giving out. I answered back, “Come on, Finkle, if you can.” He dropped back a bit. If Sergeant Finkle had not dropped back a few minutes before, he would have got the orders [to bring up the ammunition pack train]—and I would not be telling this story.”
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 17, 2018 9:48:31 GMT
Mac, back to the move north for a second or two. C is initially last. Please remember Chuck's stretched W a company preceding them deploys to swat a pest in a skirmish formation(mounted or dismounted) C passes by them and continues north. The skirmishing company falls in line when the threat is disposed of. I think we could call this a moving box or some such.
The move south is more problematic, it depends on deployment and this is open to speculation. There are any number of options, I am somewhat set in my mind on that set up. As you know we are in the minority in thinking that CIL ever ventured further north than the central portion of BR.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 17, 2018 9:52:45 GMT
Ian, you just posted up what crowsnest was looking for, in relation to TC. I hope he picks up on it. You are on your game.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2018 9:57:43 GMT
If L company was the first to engage the enemy, then this would mean that deep coulee was already heavily occupied by hostiles. If we look at the Indians themselves that used ford B as an avenue to get at the soldiers then these Indians would be blind to the events over on BRE and CR. I would guess that any occupation of greasy grass ridge/hill would be to get a view on what was going on further north. For the Indians in deep coulee to come via the valley fight, would suggest that they didn't know what was going on except for seeing other Indians moving in that direction and a few quick words like 'soldiers that way'.
That is why I think that they used deep coulee to get around the east side of battle ridge. So when Calhoun reached the southern end of battle ridge, he would have saw his route back south well and truly blocked, so we could have another meeting engagement on our hands. I do think that C was next, no matter what Benteen said and that it was riding over the type of ground which normally it would avoid because it had no choice, I would guess that by this stage the Indians had now began to dictate where the soldiers could and could not go.
For my pennies worth, I guess that Keogh was pressed south rather than sent. We could be looking at a three company defense of BRE and CR and Keogh's line was under real pressure as was both Smith and Yates. Did 'I' company still have its horses? Did any Indian accounts say that this unit was still mounted?
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2018 10:02:31 GMT
Howdy Tom and good morning. I have just found a few pages on the net which I have edited for viewing, I know that some of the stuff is not related to our current theme but I can't think of where else to post it as I am off to work now so here they are, sorry if they are a distraction.
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 17, 2018 10:37:23 GMT
True confession, I have never read this, but we came to the same conclusion of the move north from Chuck's W, Bonafede map and Steve's on the ground look see last Summer. Thanks for the post, Ian, and telling me I need another book.
Regards, Tom
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Oct 17, 2018 11:00:58 GMT
As regards timing Gall and Red Hawk report the movement along Battle Ridge and the stopping of Company L by the warriors there. This precedes the arrival of Company C. By the time Company C arrives Company L has been forced up the slope to their position on Calhoun Hill. The Lame White Man charge then happens after Gall, Knife Chief and Crazy Horse (all reported to be present at the time by Red Hawk) have already engaged Company L and forced them to the top of the hill. The movement of Crazy Horse at this time still troubles me (grist for another mill). Cheers
|
|
|
Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 17, 2018 11:32:18 GMT
No, Mac, same grist, different mill. CH focus was I, not C or L. LWM rallied the NA's arrayed against C&L. I think Gall hit I from the west and CH from north and east. Then all moved on to LSH to help Cheyenne finish that area. Slamming all doors.
Regards, Tom
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Oct 17, 2018 13:46:37 GMT
Here is my working map that is subject to change. The blue line was done from riding with the Real Birds and ending with crossing the LBH back to the Real Bird HQ. I extended the line to get to the Calhoun Area using the terrain features I would ride.
Then Chuck identifies the running W. It was an eye opener and needed investigation because my line didn't go there. This summer I met a Marine who lives in the area. We went on a field trip in the Luce area and seeing the actual ground I realized the Running W followed the edge of the terrain. I am sure the Bonafede map had that terrain under the W but seeing in person made it clear what caused that shape. So I added the Running W in red on my working map. I went back another day with my friend and we went up from MTC. It was easy to see the choice of a fork. Taking the left ford we went by that current visible on the map and right up to Luce. We then went up to N/C and on down the road back to the paved road.
So again the advantage of a board like this is the sharing of information. Without the Running W commented by Chuck I would not have went to right coming out of MTC. So now that route works for me.
I still believe an element of Custer's battalion went closer to MTC but never attempted to cross. They would be familiar with the area and after joining Custer would have shared that information. Even without that you could see the area as they passed through N/C.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 17, 2018 15:05:04 GMT
Ian: Steve's map, posted above, shows exactly what I was trying to get at when I pointed out the relationship of the Company L skirmish line and Henryville as being oriented southwest as opposed to due south.
Follow the road on Steve's map, and it depicts the approximate route on the Calhoun Hill to Weir Point Axis as a possible route of choice retrograding southward.
SO. I am beginning to like the Calhoun Hill to Weir Point Axis more and more. Two reasons:
a. People build roads in places for a reason.
b. The orientation of both C and L gives us a clue as to what route was intended. It makes no difference then who was first and who second.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Oct 17, 2018 19:55:33 GMT
I would guess then that the route the blue takes to move out of deep coulee and reach Calhoun hill was the route also taken by the Indians to assault the company L skirmish line. Henryville is also dissected by this route and used as a firing point to thin out the firing line.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 17, 2018 20:09:02 GMT
I am not following what you are saying here.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Oct 17, 2018 23:23:27 GMT
No, Mac, same grist, different mill. CH focus was I, not C or L. LWM rallied the NA's arrayed against C&L. I think Gall hit I from the west and CH from north and east. Then all moved on to LSH to help Cheyenne finish that area. Slamming all doors. Regards, Tom You are right Tom it is the same grist and the same mill. I am loving how this thread is developing and I will say more tonight when I have time. The Company C movements are important to me as they define a lot of what the accounts and archaeology tell us. I do not wish (yet) to change anything that I have said about Companies C and L but the discussion is evolving some very interesting points about proable/actual cavalry routes and objectives. Minds open and hard evidence to the fore! Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 18, 2018 3:10:48 GMT
Something to think about.
When you attack, the attack focuses on the same thrust line, but not necessarily (in fact rarely) at the same point. In fact the attacking array usually contains a main attack, a supporting attack, and a reserve.
Make no mistake, the objective was clearly to retrograde, but the method of retrograde was the hasty attack.
So, what we may have with C and L is main and supporting attacks, with Company I as an intended reserve. Two points of contact, but attacking along the same axis.
I get real dangerous after watching SEAL Team. By the way that is the future of Infantry, Small, self contained, highly trained and motivated, with a maximum of technological support. Just wait, says the guy who does not own a mobile, and thinks his land line phone is smart enough.
|
|
mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
|
Post by mac on Oct 18, 2018 10:46:59 GMT
I want to consider Crazy Horse in conjunction with Company movements.
For CH there are a few incidents in the accounts. They are The movement back from the Reno action along the west bank of the river and through the village until he crossed the river turned up a ravine. I now think this was Deep Coulee. Red Hawk says that when he saw the three divisions (companies) come down the ridge (Battle Ridge) they were stopped by the warriors. He says the leaders there were Crazy Horse, Gall and Knife Chief. Gall also places himself there with his description of when he saw "Custer" coming towards the river. His description can only be the movement Red Hawk observes. Gall says "Custer" was moving cautiously with 2 men out in front and they stopped and dismounted when they saw the warriors. It was as close as Custer ever got to the river.
A bravery run between the line of soldiers and the warriors that inspired the warriors to attack. I now believe this was at Henryville. Red Hawk says that Crazy Horse and Gall were actively encouraging the warriors to be brave and attack. A move back to the village across the river and up a ravine. Then he stopped and crept to the top of a ridge and fired quickly into mounted soldiers knocking then off their horses. I think this is a move back down from Henryville and up Deep Ravine to battle Ridge crest where he fired into Company I. A ride through a gap in the ridge (Battle Ridge) to make a bravery run in front of the enemy (Company I) and then back again thus bringing all the warriors in from both sides to attack. I believe this is the gap identified by Fred Wagner in his book. Crazy Horse does not appear in accounts around LSH (that I have seen) but I do remember conjecture that he may have chased down fleeing mounted soldiers from Company I.
My summary Gall and Knife Chief lead the attacks on Company L. Lame White Man leads the crucial attack on Company C Crazy Horse "fires up" the attack on Company L then tactically moves to their rear where he encounters Company I and leads the attack against them. Cheers
|
|