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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 22, 2018 12:31:29 GMT
To carry on C is left on Calhoun, Tom leaves his Exec. in charge and continues on with his brother for whatever reason.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 22, 2018 13:30:52 GMT
The problem I find with the idea of Custer leaving a portion of his fighting behind to watch his rear, is that I agree that a ford like the one at the bottom of MTC [or ford B] is a relevant threat, but surly that threat was made null and void once you have gone past it.
So really once Custer and his battalion or column, have reached the southern end of battle and were heading north at full speed, the ford behind them has no real significance. Yes I know that it could be used as an avenue for Indians to cross and chase them, but he was already being shadowed by various small bands of Indians and had also been involved in a fire fight on Luce, Nye-Cartwright ridges in which they had expended large amounts of ammo, so he was riding hot from that point on.
I am no expert on the distances involved here but I would guess that once Custer reached ford D, then ford B would be well over two miles away, maybe more because of the route he took, so ford B would be a distant memory as he headed of BRE to reach the flats around ford D.
Having said that, once ford D became a death trap, could Custer still have plans to use ford B as a second attack option? I would guess that a man like Custer would still have ideas on getting involved somewhere and if his command was still intact and he had made it to MTC, would he still try to cause merry hell?
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 22, 2018 13:44:29 GMT
On Greasy Grass finds top of the page, there are 6 ABU which is Army Button!! Thoughts?
Mac, if you look at the first key I posted for the finds map, then you will notice that it is located in section 4 of the map. Now the upper part of section 4 covers the area on the map which is titled ''Calhoun position'' so we could be looking at FFR for those buttons. Maybe C men?
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 22, 2018 13:44:58 GMT
Could be from the Rosebud or any other source or it could be some troopers rode up on GG to support the Gray horse moving north as they passed GG.
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 22, 2018 13:59:51 GMT
Yes Steve, I recall a discussion on the black board involving DC and a few ex-military personnel, they seemed adamant that a column moving through a danger zone would have flankers, now in my eyes a column moving north with a river and bluffs, shielding a huge village would be an area of concern, so what better then having flankers between the column and that river. GG ridge or hill would give them a heads up on any threat made by Indians crossing the river and assailing the bluffs to open fire on the column.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 22, 2018 16:37:38 GMT
Seems to me to be prudent to occupy GG if you are going to use the western corridor toward DR. I doubt it takes much total time and it could appear to someone in Thompson's location they were driven back.
Regards
Steve
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mac
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Post by mac on Oct 23, 2018 11:09:05 GMT
I am happy to consider flankers but would they go down MTC and attract attention or would they move through the FF ridge area down to nearer the river? Also what evidence (other than the trail previously mentioned) do we have to put company E down in this area? Cheers
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Oct 23, 2018 12:05:46 GMT
Mac, you need to pick up a copy of Richard Fox's Book "Archeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle". Ian turned me on to it on 10/17 in one of his posts. I am about half way through, knowing your analytical approach to things, you need this book. The e-book version is reasonable on Amazon. Treat yourself.
Regards, Tom
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 23, 2018 15:36:02 GMT
I am happy to consider flankers but would they go down MTC and attract attention or would they move through the FF ridge area down to nearer the river? Also what evidence (other than the trail previously mentioned) do we have to put company E down in this area? Cheers Mac
Curley tells Camp that the Gray Horses continue down MTC.
I think once you turn down and reach a point where you can see the Big Village you have to assume the Big Village can see you. Sending troops down MTC could be an attempt to block that others moved straight across.
I think in order to get to FF ridge the quickest route is down MTC and cut across out of range from the village side of the river. Putting soldiers on GG would slow Indians getting into a position on GG that is within range of troops using the west travel corridor. I also think there is a good chance that artifacts are there from on the way over and on the retrograde.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 23, 2018 19:39:07 GMT
Well I haven't wheeled out Custer Apollo for a while, so here is his version of ford B in his short four or five minute mini movie; BTW; he mentions in the film that from the ford B flats, you cant see Nye-Cartwright ridge, which is something I didn't know as if Keogh used N/C ridge to cover any move to ford B, then he would have been as useful as a chocolate tea pot, because Keogh wouldn't have been able to see anything at the flats to give any support.
link
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 24, 2018 12:56:59 GMT
Ian
If you have the artifacts map could you zoom in the area about 1" south and west of Luce toward Butler Ridge. There is an Indian sites and even further west a cavalry site. Its where the Gray horses may gone to use the western corridor.
As far a Apollo's videos I am glad he did them but I don't listen to what he has to say. What he calls the flats is not somewhere troops would ride so what can be seen from there is irrelevant in my opinion. The "flats" are full of cuts made by various water flow events. I would expect quicksand is possible after some events.
I think the crossing used by the Cavalry Camp and the one James Real Bird uses is more likely to be used. Further downstream is what is called the Real Bird crossing since it is in view of the bleachers which are visible on Google Earth.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 24, 2018 13:44:22 GMT
Steve, I only have two maps which could help you and one of them does not cover that area, but the Bonifides does, but things are hard to make out, you can see a few orange blobs which constitute as Indian sites and a blue blob showing a cavalry activity area;
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 24, 2018 13:50:39 GMT
One thing I thought about the Custer Apollo film, is the view the Indians would have had of any troop movements on the high ground to the east. Looking up from west of ford B would give the Indians a very vague idea of what was going on. Don't forget that the ones left in the village would have no idea on the strength and motives of the soldiers on the high ground and giving that they could have been watching two or more groups heading from ridge line to ridge line and crossing various coulees, would confuse them, some of the groups of soldiers could vanish at certain points only to re-appear again later. Bottom line is that they didn't have a clue what was going on east side of the river until they moved east themselves.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 24, 2018 23:41:40 GMT
Steve, I only have two maps which could help you and one of them does not cover that area, but the Bonifides does, but things are hard to make out, you can see a few orange blobs which constitute as Indian sites and a blue blob showing a cavalry activity area;
That is it and you see a few red dots and then blue to the west.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 24, 2018 23:44:37 GMT
One thing I thought about the Custer Apollo film, is the view the Indians would have had of any troop movements on the high ground to the east. Looking up from west of ford B would give the Indians a very vague idea of what was going on. Don't forget that the ones left in the village would have no idea on the strength and motives of the soldiers on the high ground and giving that they could have been watching two or more groups heading from ridge line to ridge line and crossing various coulees, would confuse them, some of the groups of soldiers could vanish at certain points only to re-appear again later. Bottom line is that they didn't have a clue what was going on east side of the river until they moved east themselves. I don't think it mattered at Ford B. The Cheyennes saw Custer while they were getting their horses.
It is obvious that Custer was observed on Luce and N/C or he would not have fired so much.
Regards
Steve
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