What if? A commander's view from The Crow's Nest

[sgttyree]

The Regimental Commander climbs the Crow's Nest and sees the Little Bighorn Valley for the first time. His scouts point out the area where the village is and show him the pony herd.  They describe it as, "Worms on the grass."   The Regimental Commander takes it all in.

Then Colonel Ranald "Bad Hand" Mackenzie leaves the Crow's Nest and returns to the waiting 4th United States Cavalry.

What happens now?  

[Beth]

I suspect may that depends on if you mean the fictionalized Mackenzie or the real one.

[sgttyree]

The real one.

The one who told his troops at Pablo Duro Canyon, "I brought you in, I will take you out!"

And he did.

[Beth]

I am going to have to differ an answer for now do to it is past my bedtime. I though will have to admit that I know some about Mackenzie, though it is not enough to give you a good conversation on the subject. I hope others will be able to though. I do look forward to reading more on the conversation and will be quickly making myself more familiar with the man.

[yanmacca]

What is this Tyree, are you trying to pitch Mackenzie against Custer?
I have not studied Mackenzie to give an opinion on him, but from what I have seen, he has a good track record.

But I am still at a loss to your question, are you saying that if Mackenzie was sat on top of the Crows nest on the same morning as Custer was, and do we know what his next decision would be?

What would be his options;

Move the regiment forward and send out scouts.
Camp the regiment until the scouts find the village, wait for Intel and then formulate an attack.
Camp the regiment until the scouts find the village, and then send a messenger to Terry, and then move the regiment forward.
Camp the regiment until the scouts find the village, and then send a messenger to Terry, and wait for further orders.

Yan.

[deadwoodgultch]

What ifs are important. Would have Mac, confirmed/prepared for the battle space prior to entering it? Would Mac have sent a scout, via back trail and Tullock's to inform Terry? Would Mac have informed Benteen that "you have your orders captain" when Benteen warned that the regiment should be kept together? Would Mac have continued to divide his command/reduce fire power at the point of attack? So many questions.

Regards,
Tom

[deadwoodgultch]

Ian, stole my $hit, more or less and I have been to Crow's Nest.

[deadwoodgultch]

You may or may not know that there was a battle near Crow's Nest two years prior to this battle. That battle was between roughly 140 civilians and over 1,000 NA's and the civilians won. By the way the rifle pits still exist. That is where Mac could have camped. Don't get me wrong, these were an angry, aggressive group of NA's, witness the battle on the Rosebud.

Regards,
Tom

[yanmacca]

Sorry Tom, I am running hot this morning.

[deadwoodgultch]

Ian, the battlefield I allude to is right there on the divide, where GAC, ordered Benteen to the left.

[sgttyree]

Jul 8, 2017 9:50:22 GMT yanmacca said:

What is this Tyree, are you trying to pitch Mackenzie against Custer?

 Not at all. It was a "what if" question. What if Mackenzie and his 4th had been in the place of Custer and his 7th?

 Some people hate "what ifs" and anything that reeks of alternative history and want to stick to discussing history as it happened.  Others find "what ifs" interesting.

But I am still at a loss to your question, are you saying that if Mackenzie was sat on top of the Crows nest on the same morning as Custer was, and do we know what his next decision would be?

Considering Mackenzie's battle record in the southwest, what might he have done had he found himself in Custer's situation?

[quincannon]

You know damned well what he would have done Captain Tyree before you asked the question.

He would plan his attack to destroy or break up the center of gravity, that which lost would prevent further Indian operations. He would do the same thing he did in the Llano Estacado at Palo Duro, and on Thanksgiving of 76, go after horses and infrastructure.

I think this place may well be your department.

[sgttyree]

Jul 8, 2017 9:58:53 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

Would Mac have informed Benteen that "you have your orders captain" when Benteen warned that the regiment should be kept together?

There is no Benteen in this what if. Just Mackenzie and his 4th Cavalry. The question is not what if Mackenzie had been in command of the 7th Cavalry in Custer's place.

[yanmacca]

Am I correct in saying that he 4th cavalry were the best trained cavalry regiment in the then US Army?
Or was that the 2nd cavalry, I forget.

What I meant was if Mackenzie had joined his scouts and saw what they saw, what would he do next?
Is he operating under the same orders what Custer was operating under?
Would he make his own judgement calls instead of following orders?

Well to be honest, I don't know as I am not that big on US Cavalry generals.

[sgttyree]

Jul 8, 2017 13:25:41 GMT quincannon said:

You know damned well what he would have done Captain Tyree before you asked the question.

Ha! I think I have an idea based on some things he did in the southwest.  But someone else might think different and I'd be interested in hearing their opinion. 

He would plan his attack to destroy or break up the center of gravity, that which lost would prevent further Indian operations. He would do the same thing he did in the Llano Estacado at Palo Duro, and on Thanksgiving of 76, go after horses and infrastructure.

There's a term I like!

Center of Gravity: "The source of power that provides moral or physical strength, freedom of action, or will to act."  Usually seen as "The source of strength."

If I understand correctly CoGs can be either strategic or tactical, correct?  The strategic CoG for the plains tribes was undoubtedly the buffalo herds.  When the buffalo was gone the plains tribes were done and like it or not the buffalo hunters did as much or more than the Army to force the plains tribes onto reservations.  But what about a tactical CoG at LBH?  I think it was the pony herd more than the women and children.

So I suspect Mackenzie would keep his force together and try to drive his force like a wedge between the village and the pony herd.  The warriors will still have their favorite horse staked out near their lodges and will be able to get mounted and fight but the fight would likely be a delaying action as the bulk of the village tried to flee on foot.  Most likely down river toward the other columns.

I think this place may well be your department.

Well, I was perhaps the greatest fire-team leader of all time.  A strategic E-5.  Yep, that's me.