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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2017 13:53:46 GMT
Ian, Captain Tyree specified the 4th Cavalry in that they were arguably the best trained and most experienced of any cavalry regiment in the west at the time.
They stayed pretty much together in west Texas (San Antonio to New Mexico and beyond). They learned how to fight irregulars from company to regimental level, and had conducted near continuous combat operations for more than six years. I have personally visited some of their bases, like Fort Concho (the most out of the way God forsaken place you can imagine), and Fort Richardson, as well as the Staked Plains and Palo Duro, and followed the Commanchero Trail from Santa Fe. Any military unit that fights and wins on that terrain could go to the dark side of the moon, fight Godzilla, and not break sweat. That's why he specified the 4th
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2017 13:57:56 GMT
Yes the Center of Gravity can be strategic, operational, or tactical.
Definitely the pony herd, and if you get them to rapidly abandon the village, all of their person gear, and provisions, especially stored provisions.
Mechanized or Light. Damn I hope you say light.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 8, 2017 14:00:29 GMT
I thought I had heard their name mention before. I am not sure if I said something similar in the past when I said that a cavalry brigade would have been able to obtain a better result, so the 7th along with the 4th, but under the command of who? With 12 regiments to chose from, I wonder why so little emphasis was placed on this campaign, each column could have had a full regiment of cavalry and Custer and Mackenzie could have operated independently ahead of Gibbon and Terry, in that way you can bring over baring force down onto your objective.
That would mean five regiments out of a total of twelve, was that too much to ask considering they wanted the whole problem solved?
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Post by mlynn on Jul 8, 2017 14:09:56 GMT
Ian, Captain Tyree specified the 4th Cavalry in that they were arguably the best trained and most experienced of any cavalry regiment in the west at the time. They stayed pretty much together in west Texas (San Antonio to New Mexico and beyond). They learned how to fight irregulars from company to regimental level, and had conducted near continuous combat operations for more than six years. I have personally visited some of their bases, like Fort Concho (the most out of the way God forsaken place you can imagine), and Fort Richardson, as well as the Staked Plains and Palo Duro, and followed the Commanchero Trail from Santa Fe. Any military unit that fights and wins on that terrain could go to the dark side of the moon, fight Godzilla, and not break sweat. That's why he specified the 4th Since I now live in TX and love going to NM, I try to go west every year in the fall. I am discovering a whole new area of history to dig in to. I am discovering the importance of the terrain in the "old West' stories now and I am fascinated with the commanches, like I said before. I am also interested in the pueblo Native American culture. I can't get enough of it. When you study the same subject for a long period of time, things start to get redundant even though it still hold my interest because of new discoveries and info. But, digging into something new is like a baby seeing the world for the first time. Everything is new.
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 8, 2017 14:10:17 GMT
Mechanized or Light. Damn I hope you say light. 11B2P
Ft Bragg, NC and Vicenza, Italy. No combat time, though. Just a "cold warrior."
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2017 14:21:21 GMT
That would put you in the 82nd Airborne Division and 173rd Airborne Brigade. I assume you served in the Nickle-O- Trey "The Rock"
Ian: Promote him hell, I just read the Bellah stories. A fellow named Stuart promoted him.
ML: If you like pueblo life go to the Verde Valley in Arizona.
Ian: Ten regiments of Cavalry. 11 thru 17 did not come along until after the Span Am War and up to just before WWI.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 8, 2017 14:23:50 GMT
Ian: Promote him hell, I just read the Bellah stories. A fellow named Stuart promoted him. I hope he promoted "Sgt Rutledge" too!
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 8, 2017 14:29:30 GMT
That would put you in the 82nd Airborne Division and 173rd Airborne Brigade. I assume you served in the Nickle-O- Trey "The Rock" 3rd Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment
My battalion was part of 2nd Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division for the first year and a half I was there. Then we rotated enmasse to Italy and fell under the command of Southern European Task Force because the Army was experimenting with rotating cohort battalions in the '80s. It was a single battalion combat team in Vicenza in those days.
The battalion combat team was expanded to a brigade and became 173rd Airborne Brigade later, sometime around 2000 I think?
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2017 14:29:56 GMT
Same guy wrote the story of Rutledge, but no promotion. Not in the 19th Century U S Army.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 8, 2017 14:31:48 GMT
I know Chuck along with one of my other favorites "the man who shot Liberty Valence"
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2017 14:44:09 GMT
The 325th is Beth's grandfathers outfit in WWI.
If I remember those times correctly the 1-509 was based in Italy and a rotational battalion made the force sort of a brigade under SETF.I think 1-508 was in there for some time as well.
Yes the 173rd came along later and today it has two battalions of the 503, plus being rounded out by 1-143 an airborne battalion of the TXARNG.
The airborne presence in Europe started with the 11th Airborne Division. When the 1st Cavalry was reduced to zero strength in Japan, and the colors moved to Korea in 57 to replace the 24th ID. The colors of the 24th were moved to Europe to replace the 11th, but the they left two airborne battle groups from the 11th to become part of the 24th. Those two battle groups were the ones who went to Lebanon in 58. About 63-64 those two airborne units transferred to the 8th ID as of all things airborne/mechanized. Can't recall how they got to Italy, but what I do remember is that the commander of the SETF was an old 173rd guy from Vietnam and he wanted that patch and those colors for SETF. Took a good while but I think it came about shortly after I retired. It became a full up ABBCT in about 2003 or 04.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 8, 2017 15:39:23 GMT
Well, E-5, I was an E-7, and I asked an honest question, would have divided his force and firepower in the face of the enemy and ignore, probably his most competent officer. Now in all honesty E-7 in the USAF,23 years mostly AFNG time. I don't think Mac would have considered covering his a$$ at this time. And, that is what Benteen was sent to do. By the way Quincannon and I agree on the CoG, and it has been discussed it here before. I like the way you think.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2017 15:46:55 GMT
McKenzie, upon seeing or being told about that horse herd would have conducted a thorough reconnaissance to determine both the exact position and extent of both the herd and villages. He did not ride anywhere blind, not in Mexico, not at Palo Duro Canyon, and not in Wyoming. That is the difference between a pro and an also ran.
There would have been no need for McKenzie to send a Benteen clone anywhere. You only try to cover your ass if by your own doing you have yourself uncovered your ass. McKenzie was not prone to doing that, and recall in those latter days McKenzie was not in the greatest state of mental health.
For those new readers, Center of Gravity in layman's language is something you identify that the enemy cannot do without.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 8, 2017 16:07:17 GMT
Looking at the map Steve posted and Willys bend, you could be forgiven for thinking that Custer had eyes on the horse herd or even the non-coms or both! as that route looks like a sweep to get not only to the back of the village but to get right around it.
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 8, 2017 16:09:48 GMT
Well, E-5, I was an E-7, and I asked an honest question, would have divided his force and firepower in the face of the enemy and ignore, probably his most competent officer. Indeed you did and I will try to give an honest answer. However, my answer is an opinion and we all know about those.
I don't think Mackenzie, if he had been in the same situation with his own regiment, would have divided his force. I think, based on his actions at Palo Duro and elsewhere, that cutting off the village from the horse herd would have been his main focus. For that he needs to keep his force together, minus a company to guard the packs, perhaps, but mostly together. Mackenzie probably would not try some variation of a holding attack and an enveloping attack. At least not holding in the valley and enveloping to the right, along the high ridge. I suspect Mackenzie would give careful consideration to advice from subordinates but to be honest I'm not up on what kind of relationships Mackenzie had with his subordinates. Sorry for not knowing more about that.
Custer told his Indian scouts to go for the horse herd but the horse herd was not his main focus.
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