dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 8, 2017 23:48:45 GMT
After 141 years the issue of "Did Benteen Dawdle?" still exists as a favorite debate topic for those who care about the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Benteen is an either or kinda guy, as he is loved or hated. Custerphiles have accused and convicted Benteen for abandoning Custer, causing his death and the deaths of 200 plus others. Those who support Benteen are just as fervent in their beliefs. So who is right?
The one person who has ridden on horse the route Benteen took, AZ Ranger, has stated repeatedly that Benteen did not dawdle because: harshness of the terrain horses having ridden over 125 miles over past 4 days horses not being waterd since 8pm the night before short rations
Benteen did not know the terrain, had no map nor Indian scouts to provide information. Was not aware of Indians fleeing or Reno attacking, since Custer did not send information to him. Note tells him to come: where? be quick? bring packs? PS bring pacs?
Benteen is well trained officer who knows to preserve his horses till needed. How was he to deduce what was going on? He could not leave Reno till the packs came up and full fill his orders could he? If I am wrong I hope someone will set me straight. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2017 3:01:13 GMT
I THINK BENTEEN DAWDLED
Before you go any further with preparations for my public crucifixion, take heed.
The work Steve did with others is not being questioned here. I think Steve was pretty darn close, not perfect, but it proved that Benteen was moving as he was expected to move. The not perfect part is probably a difference of a very few minutes, maybe five, to allow for Steve's group of a few horsemen to be translated into a column of cavalry - three can maneuver quicker than thirty etc.
Benteen committed a mental dawdle, that was fully justified by the circumstances he found when he joined Reno. We all know what shape Reno's people were in so there is no need to go over that ground. Benteen when he got there was in a very peculiar situation. He had to get control of the situation, but had to make it appear that he was the loyal subordinate there to lend aid, but at the same time not usurping command or appearing like he was. That is a very hard thing to do, but yet something most of us have done at one time or other in our every day lives. This WAS the time to dawdle, to be deliberate, to get the act together, make solid bricks with very little straw.
People like the Queen's Cavalier and his gang of pseudo cutthroats say no, ride to the sound of the guns, cover your own graves with the dead laurels of defeat, save the Golden Boy. You all know the nonsense.
So Benteen did dawdle, instead of doing stupid.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 9, 2017 12:00:55 GMT
I think that people are looking how long it took him to meet Reno, now the two main factors are [one] that his horses needed watering, which makes sense as if you were in charge of an amoured column and your petrol gauges were on red, and you came across a fuel dump, now you know that you are about to enter a battle, do you want to run out of gas as you are attacking? well its the same principle.
[two] he had to keep the packs between him and what lay ahead [he didn't know anything of what lay beyond the next natural obstacle]
If Benteen had took his battalion off at full pelt after he got that note and left the packs miles behind and lost half of his men due to worn out horses, then he would still be criticized by his critics.
Benteen was faced with circumstances which he had no control over.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2017 14:49:09 GMT
I you recall one of Benteen's lines in the movie "Son of the Morning Star", a movie I would just as soon forget, you will note that at the point of receiving the note he says - "If I am to be any value to Custer". Probably the best line in that awful movie.
So what you are saying Ian is that Benteen's critics base their criticism on Benteen thinking through the problem at hand. That should tell you volumes about the quality of the criticism, and the mental instability of the critic more than it says anything about Benteen.
I am not a fan of any of these people, but neither am I going to criticize any of them for doing the job in consonance with the exercise of good judgment. Benteen and Reno both fumbled the ball several times over the course of those three days, but the critical decisions, Reno the breakout, and Benteen acting with due deliberation, are not two of those occasions.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 9, 2017 15:06:18 GMT
Yes Chuck, you hit the nail on the head.
He could follow what orders he had [which are very loose to say the least] and arrive fresh will the packs safely behind him, or rush off at a gallop and arrive with only half of his battalion on tired horses and the other half left on the trail behind.
I am no expert on these issues but a half strength worn out unit is no good to anyone, especially a cavalry unit which relies on horses.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2017 15:25:56 GMT
That is why I always prefer Longstreet to Jackson Ian.
When Longstreet marched he arrived ready to fight with a corps. When Jackson marched he may have arrived faster, but he left a divisions worth of stragglers on the road behind him.
I mentioned Chantilly/Ox Hill to Benteen in rebuttal yesterday, and I hope he reads and digests that rebuttal for a number of reasons, mainly to stay him from once again jumping off a cliff spurred on by incomplete or inaccurate information.
During that battle Jackson was in the lead, and he moved so fast that he showed up at the point of contact with only two thirds of his corps. He was faced by two small Union divisions Stevens and Kearny, and should have gone through them like a hot knife through butter. He didn't and at the point of contact he failed miserably. Had he been able to break through and reached the Jermaintown crossroads (the place where the Warrenteon Pike turns off the Little River Pike, he would have had Pope in the bag. For those interested that crossroads is the intersection of US29/211 and US 50 now within the City of Fairfax, and the main portion of the Chantilly battlefield is the area immediately surrounding the modern Fair Oaks shopping center, particularly the area just due west of it. You can Google map it and see just how close Jackson came, but alas no cigar.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 9, 2017 15:42:36 GMT
They say that Longstreet and Jackson both respected each other and actually got on in a cordial way, they even say they Jackson used to try and get Longstreet to laugh, but apparently Stuart was the only officer who could manage to get a laugh out of him.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2017 16:16:51 GMT
It was Jackson that they tried to get to laugh, not Longstreet, and Stuart was the only one who managed to make Jackson crack a smile.
Jackson never got over blaming God for all his many failures and losses in life.
Jackson was a humorless staunchly religious prick.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jun 9, 2017 18:33:03 GMT
Benteen, did not dawdle, he in fact, may not have moved at a cautious enough pace in enemy territory if truth be known. He did, maybe, however, disobey orders, by breaking off his scout before reaching the river area.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2017 19:29:44 GMT
"He in fact etc. etc." - probably.
Disobey orders - nonsense. When a commander is given an order it is implicit in that order that his superior commander, the one issuing it, is depending upon that subordinate commander's good judgment to execute. If you are depending upon that subordinate commander's good judgment then when he says it's time to quit that is part of that judgment. He must be able to justify his decision of course, and if he can it is not disobedience. That is what Benteen did. It was justifiable. Where then is your disobedience?
When you ran your dining facility and your commander told you to prepare meals for two hundred, then it came to your attention there could only be 100 people that could possibly partake. What do you do, prepare meals for two hundred, thereby wasting the taxpayers money, or use your newly acquired knowledge and exercise good judgment? Same principle Tom. The very same.
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on Jun 9, 2017 20:24:29 GMT
This from "Strategy" page 131.
The first thing Benteen asked Reno was, where was Custer? He showed Cook's note to the Major who replied, he didn't know. There was more said, however, yet we seldom if ever, hear about it. Benteen's Lt. Frank Gibson, in a letter to George L. Yates (Capt Yates' son) dated April 28, 1915, wrote that Benteen added " Well let us make a junction with him as soon as possible" This I know for I heard it.
Be Well Dan
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Post by Beth on Jun 9, 2017 20:42:53 GMT
Personally I kind of think it's irrelevant if Benteen dawdled. He was exactly where he needed to be at pretty much the moment he was needed. I know that wasn't intentional but it sometimes the way life works and chance is always a factor in everything we do. I know people have the fantasy that if Benteen had continued on he would have saved Custer but the timing doesn't prove that possibility. They can justify leaving injured and possibly dying men in a dangerous situation over the possibility that Custer 'might' have been saved. It's like driving past a terrible car accident when you are the first on the scene because there might be another accident down the road.
History has no room for fantasy, we can all speculate how any battle would be different based on "if", but it's always has to be recognized that it is just an exercise in mental war gaming.
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Post by yanmacca on Jun 9, 2017 20:59:46 GMT
It was Jackson that they tried to get to laugh, not Longstreet, and Stuart was the only one who managed to make Jackson crack a smile. Now you know why I don't get involved in anything to do with the ACW, I make a pigs ear out of it.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2017 21:31:34 GMT
"As soon as possible". Soon and possible being the operative words.
It's alright Ian, I don't know the name of the low life wench that was playing patty fingers with Lord Silkbritches, and I never learned the name of the Baskerville's Hound either, but I suspect it wasn't Fido.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Jun 9, 2017 21:45:25 GMT
Beth The question of whether Benteen dawdled will be going on long after we are gone and never be settled to everyone's satisfaction. Ian Don't feel bad regarding your knowledge of our Civil War as you know as much if not more than the average American. We as a people are engaged in a sharply debated discussion of to or not remove of Confederate memorials, statues and parks from public and Federal properties but I fear little learning is involved. Too many yelling and too few listening and talking.
Back to Benteen I have always wondered if the those who have criticized Benteen for his actions or lack of them have any concept of the various factors that affected him such as the terrain, physical state of horses and men, weather conditions, lack of intelligence about the hostiles location and numbers as well as what was Custer's plan or plans that faced him?
Benteen had to deal with a written order, so confusing that is still being discussed 141 years later, and how to take over command from a superior without taking over command. I have no idea the nature of the army in 1876 but I bet it was extremely difficult to for a Captain to disobey a Major who has countermanded his previous order especially the exacting detail of one that commands “come on” where? Was Benteen to jauntily pass by and holler “good luck?”
Benteen faced the physical impossibility to “be quick” and “bring packs” at the same time. Remember Benteen is having to decide in real time on the field, not at home sitting at a computer with a cool drink at hand. He has been chastised for not splitting the ammo mules from the pack train and rushing forward but Custer had not been engaged yet and had no need for the ammo resupply. If Benteen had taken just the ammo mules and split for Custer he would have left the other 4 companies on their own, which does not make sense.
Benteen had no idea of what he would face till he arrived at Reno's position on the bluffs. Cooke's order as well as Martini's comments never expressed the need for a hell bent for leather ride to where? Big Village? A village of over 8,000 Indians just exactly where in the village?
I tire of the many strident voices castigating Benteen and Reno for failing Custer and causing the deaths of 200 plus soldiers who base their arguments on shifting sand. If one has not 1) ridden the terrain and route Benteen took; 2) realized that the horses had not been watered in over 16 hours; 3) attempted to be the first who has to comprehend Cooke's order on the fly; 4) have any idea of where Custer or Reno were or their condition should temper their judgement. Regards Dave
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