azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 8, 2017 4:57:10 GMT
I was trained on an Ithaca 37 twice a year, one night one day. We carried 00 shells and they spread a very large pattern and would kick like a mule. Some of the female officers refused to qualify and were not allowed to carry one on duty. Regards Dave Some things never change. The 870 with buckshot is good within 16 yards while keeping all 9 pellets on target. The slug is good to 50 yards which is the limit of the patrol rifle also. That is due to verbal commands at greater distance are problematic. We can and do shoot at further distances depending upon the threat. Even at close range depending upon the threat a verbal challenge is not necessary.
Regards
Steve
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 8, 2017 21:01:05 GMT
I think Captain Benteen did the right thing. And here's my reasoning: 1) I'm lookin' at this as a lowly Fire Team Leader in THE United States Marine Corps. Say for example my fire team and another fire team were sent on a scouting mission. And in the carrying out of that mission, the remainder of the platoon gets ambushed, just as the other fire team makes contact, takes casualties and falls back to a more defensible position. I get a message to come to the aid of the platoon: but in doing so, come upon the other Fire Team, in contact and in disarray. My instinct is that I must do what I can to rally the beleaguered Fire Team, secure the wounded and then come up with a way to make contact with the platoon and appraise them of what my current situation is. BUT, if the rest of the platoon is already surrounded and cannot be reached, then I guess it's time to secure the wounded and make the best of what you have. I just don't see how anyone could do any different. And yes, I understand about "Orders"- But someone once wrote that no plan survives First Contact. And that's when the hard choices have to be made. 2) I wasn't there, and I never second guess the actions of a man in a fight I wasn't personally in. One can "what if" all one wants, but unless one is actually THERE it's all kind of academic. If Captain Benteen would have "ridden to the sound of the guns" he'd have wound up like Lt. Col. Custer. And that would have left Major Reno's command without any back-up, with a leader who is in questionable shape, totally surrounded and out-gunned. That would have pretty much would have been the end of the 7th Cavalry as a unit. I think. Respectfully Submitted, Duane. I believe Benteen had to perform what amounted to a tactical triage in circumstances that were "tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving" as we sometimes say in police use of force decisions.
Tactical triage. I think I just made that up.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2017 21:07:44 GMT
Made up or not, that is exactly what he did.
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Post by Beth on Jul 8, 2017 21:31:28 GMT
I think I may have asked this question before on a board far far away.
Are there ever orders that are so set in stone that there is no room for a tactical triage? (I do like that term because the concept of triage is easy to understand because it is applicable to so many things in life)
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Post by sgttyree on Jul 8, 2017 21:50:24 GMT
Are there ever orders that are so set in stone that there is no room for a tactical triage? (I do like that term because the concept of triage is easy to understand because it is applicable to so many things in life) No, I don't believe so. That's one reason why modern military planning includes something called "The commander's intent."
The commander's intent is not the tactical plan per se. It's not your "orders." It's the desired end state. You can "disobey orders" if you accomplish the commander's intent. But be prepared to explain (in some cases justify) your actions.
A definition from the operations manual:
"The commander's intent describes the desired end state. It is a concise expression of the purpose of the operation and must be understood two echelons below the issuing commander. . . It is the single unifying focus for all subordinate elements. It is not a summary of the concept of the operation. Its purpose is to focus subordinates on the desired end state. Its utility is to focus subordinates on what has to be accomplished in order to achieve success, even when the plan and concept of operations no longer apply, and to discipline their efforts toward that end."
In WWII, German panzer leaders were sometimes put through exercises that were designed so that they would have to "disobey orders" to achieve the desired end state.
Beth, if you are really bored you could look up the German word "Auftragstaktik." But you will encounter some dry reading.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2017 22:59:18 GMT
Outstanding post, simply outstanding. I don't care if the paymasters stage get whacked, you earned your pay this day Tyree.
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Post by Beth on Jul 9, 2017 0:40:27 GMT
I told you we wanted to get him here. ASAP.
Would not commander's intent cover Terry's orders as well? (for sake of an argument that doesn't exist here) Or is it not modern enough?
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Post by rebcav on Dec 17, 2017 12:34:31 GMT
Looks like we have a few of The Duke's contemporaries here- Sgt. Quincannon and Sgt. Tyree......Dang, I'm in good company. Where is Captain Brittles?
Bloody Mary's and "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" followed by "Red River" is my schedule on this cold North Carolina Morning, I hope everyone is doing well today, Aloha, Duane
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Dec 17, 2017 13:12:18 GMT
Doing well here, Merry Christmas and a very Happy New year, to you Duane.
Regards, Tom
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Post by yanmacca on Dec 17, 2017 13:31:12 GMT
Duane, I am sure Capt. Brittles was another of Chucks aliases. Could have been when he and I were resident on the "Brown Board"
Have a great Christmas over there is snowy Hawaii.
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Post by rebcav on Dec 17, 2017 14:26:25 GMT
Doing well here, Merry Christmas and a very Happy New year, to you Duane. Regards, Tom And to you as well, Sir. Pretty exited for Christmas this year. It'll be the first Christmas I've spent with my mom since 1995. We're all pretty stoked. Aloha, Duane
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Post by Beth on Dec 20, 2017 0:09:01 GMT
Best of holiday wishes to you Duane. Thanksgiving I was able to get together with nearly all of my family (only one nephew was missing). It becomes harder every year to get together so those times we can are cherished.
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Post by rebcav on Dec 22, 2017 11:04:00 GMT
Best of holiday wishes to you Duane. Thanksgiving I was able to get together with nearly all of my family (only one nephew was missing). It becomes harder every year to get together so those times we can are cherished. And to you as well, Beth. I hear what you're saying re. "getting everyone together"... And ya wanna hear something REALLY COOL? My mom makes the BEST Pepper Steak in the WORLD....And I've had it for dinner 3 nights in a row!!!! YUM!!!! Merry Christmas to all the Folks here......And wishing all a Happy, Healthy, and prosperous New Year... Aloha, Duane
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