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Post by quincannon on May 2, 2023 1:51:50 GMT
Lots of nice work Ian. Finishing up the new Tamiya Comet in 1/35 scale, and getting thoroughly pissed off on the Tamiya M10. The idlers don't fit worth a damn and I had to rig a fix that looks like warmed over horse crap.
I may just chuck it all and go back to my first love 1/100 scale. There small but you camn make them real pretty.
Speaking of Team Yankee/Flames of War stuff. They have a book out called the "Colors of War" which is actually a painting guide for all the major armies in WWII and near present. It is put out in conjunction with Vallejo Paints. Talks 1/100 scale, but the painting techniques and color selection are universal regardless of scale. In other words you can use these same methods and colors on your 1/72, or any other scale for that matter. Best 30 bucks I have ever spent on modeling.
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Post by yanmacca on May 2, 2023 19:17:00 GMT
Thats only a fraction on the US Army alone, I have a complete company of each one of those platoons, just showed them as platoons because of space. I have companies from the big eight from WW2, but that is a paint job to end all paint jobs, that is why I have been collection paints too, something to do when I retire.
I would like to take part in this wargame link
Ian
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Post by quincannon on May 3, 2023 1:48:38 GMT
One of the things not mentioned in the film when they were being critical of Bowie's decision to stay, and not blow the damned place up was the fact that there were somewhere between thirty and fifty wounded and sick Texians (mostly wounded). These were from the battle of San Antonio de Bexar in December of 1835. Additional there were approximately fourteen cannon in the Alamo, most of them without field carriages, including the largest field piece west of the Mississippi River at the time (18 pounder). The Alamo actually had more cannon than Santa Anna did.
No commander in the 19th Century, in the American South anyway, would ever consider abandoning wounded. He would have been pilloried, if not crucified. It was just not done. The same with the guns. Walking away from the largest artillery park for a thousand miles around was something they felt they could not do, and those guns, they thought, would be critical in the coming fight with the Mexican Army. The problem that faced Bowie, and later Travis was they had not the means to move either the wounded or the guns. Despite the common myth, the Texians had few horses, maybe thirty, but certainly no more than fifty. They were in the main starving Infantry, many of whom had been betrayed by their former commanders, who took all their supplies and went off on a filibuster to Matamoras.
From an operational standpoint, both Bowie in deciding to stay, and Houston ordering him to go were correct. Bowie's letter explains his point of view, when he says frontier picket guard, what us moderns refer to as a screen, was required. The San Antonio River was the screen line, It should have been outposted on every route that led into Texas from Mexico. The most important of those routes led to San Antonio. Houston was also correct in realizing that he was going to have to draw Santa Anna deep into Texas before he stuck him. Normally the screen line withdraws once their job is complete, but in this instance both ends of that screen line San Antonio and Goliad, lacked the means to move and were fixed, then destroyed.
Tactics and the operational arts are a bitch, when you ain't got the means. At that point the method does not matter much.
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Post by miker on May 3, 2023 2:07:56 GMT
From an operational standpoint, both Bowie in deciding to stay, and Houston ordering him to go were correct. Bowie's letter explains his point of view, when he says frontier picket guard, what us moderns refer to as a screen, was required. The San Antonio River was the screen line, It should have been outposted on every route that led into Texas from Mexico. The most important of those routes led to San Antonio. Houston was also correct in realizing that he was going to have to draw Santa Anna deep into Texas before he stuck him. Normally the screen line withdraws once their job is complete, but in this instance both ends of that screen line San Antonio and Goliad, lacked the means to move and were fixed, then destroyed. I beg to differ on the underlined, bolded, italicized sentence fragment above. The units conducting screen, pickets, videttes, guard, and cover do not normally collapse as a whole. They give ground, keeping contact with the enemy, so some may stay forward longer while others move more quickly to the rear. They can, of course, all go away at once if they are told to stay out for a given time, some other event happens, or at the whim of the protected (Not the security force) commander. I grant that in the era under discussion, things could have been different. But once you find the bastards, don't let go, and then pile on.
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Post by quincannon on May 3, 2023 4:28:37 GMT
In this particular instance Mike they could not withdraw due to the above stated inhibitors, wounded, unwillingness to give up the guns (Alamo), and a lack of transport at both the Alamo, and Goliad. Perhaps withdrawal was the wrong choice of wording, because you are completely correct that the screening force does attempt to maintain contact, at least visual contact.
Wrong choice of wording or not the screen line maintained along the San Antonio River was essential, and if I have to fault anyone it is Houston (as you know a favorite of mine) for not giving Bowie and later Travis more explicit orders. The mistake of course was not doing everything possible to resource both those garrisons with transport from within the colonies, but that is for another days discussion.
Houston in fact did not let go, and in the end piled on. He had scouts, Deaf Smith and others watching Santa Anna, and the other Mexican forces in Texas from the time Houston left Gonzalez, until he trapped him at San Jacinto. Trapped is another word that some would differ with, saying instead SA trapped Sam. To those I would say Sam left SA no choice but to camp with his back to Peggy's Lake, so the trapee became the trapper. Sam was one smart dude.
Finally going to get a smart phone. My son and daughter insisted. Maybe old dogs can learn new tricks.
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Post by yanmacca on May 3, 2023 10:22:53 GMT
About time too, my older brother and sister 84 and 85 respectively had had one for years. Ask your lad to install WhatsApp, that way I can send you my number and I can call you for free, I can send you photos too, if I am painting a model I can take a photo and send it straight to you jn case I want advice. All you need is a WiFi signal which you must have in your home to use your Internet.
Ian
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Post by yanmacca on May 3, 2023 10:24:18 GMT
What did you think of the wargame scenario in the alamo clip?
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Post by miker on May 3, 2023 12:14:30 GMT
I was not disputing your tactical analysis but only your comment about withdrawing the entire screen line at once. I am not a big student of 18th or 19th century warfare, nor the walk Eastern Front.
What Alamo clip?
I think we are posting in the wrong topic.
Perhaps a moderator can move these posts to the Alamo thread?
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Post by quincannon on May 3, 2023 14:03:35 GMT
Mike the war game video is in the link Ian posted. I thought it very interesting, and my son tells me that there are many on that gaming web site and one other including a five part Battle of the Bulge which I will watch presently. I asked if they had done Cowpens and he said no, not to his knowledge
What did I think of the game Ian? I thought it pretty much followed that basic outline of what happened and was quite well done considering that the eventual outcome was preordained. One thing was missing, but I do not know how you could simulate the hours of darkness, and the confusion caused in any more realistic way. Keep in mind that the whole thing was over by a few minutes after dawn on 6 March. I really loved that model, and I hoped you caught the mention of that door in the east wall. Most time no one notices that, and that is thought to be one of the escape routes used by the Texians in the last stages of the battle. If you look on a modern map of San Antonio that door is positioned just about where the south sidewalk is now on Houston Street, across Houston from the City Post Office and the Emily Morgan Hotel
Yes, it's about time for the smart phone. I am getting it mainly for safety reasons. Still a lot of lonely roads out here. What convinced me though was when Scott was here and we visited the Garden of the Gods, he was sending real time photos of what he was seeing to his wife in Williamsburg and my granddaughter in the UK. Neither had ever been to Colorado.
Yes, I do think the Alamo subject posts should be moved to the Alamo thread.
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Post by Elwood on Jun 27, 2023 19:43:36 GMT
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Post by quincannon on Jun 28, 2023 2:09:04 GMT
It's a light tank regardless of what the Army calls it. The Army, after their sorry history with light tanks M3-M5-M24-M41-M551 finally got the idea that the Main Battle Tank made the most sense. It only took them 30 years. Then they tried again with the Buford and even the light guys like myself were not buying into that, and we (the light community) really needed some direct fire kinetic punch. Then the come up with the Styker mobile gun system, and the damned thing looks like it is going to topple over every time it fires its main gun. They recently threw that one on the scrap heap too. Now they try to sell the M10 Booker. I hope it works we need the gun power for the light force, but being the skeptic that I am, I suspect it is just more shim sham shuffle and jive for which we will spend a couple of billion bucks and retire by 2035. What we need to do is find out who builds the Italian Centauro or the Japanese Type 16, and order about a thousand. We won't do that which will work though because they are not built here.
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Post by miker on Jun 28, 2023 2:55:09 GMT
Well, the M10 is based on the British Ajax Reconnaissance Vehicle, which according to my few British Officer Friends is a POS. Neither M8 or M10 used the M68 105mm gun as the M60/M60A1/M60A3/M1/M48A5 but a low Velocity M35 105mm. The Stryker MGS used the M68A2 105mm gun which I suspect was too much for the thing and they would have been better off using the M35. The M8 was later offered with a 120mm main gun as well as a battery pack which would provide enough power for an hour of movement (or much longer without having to charge the batteries when stationary).
Adding to the problem is they are only going to give a company to each brigade, it would make more sense to group then into a separate battalion at division. It may have made more sense in order to get Armor into the LIDs to use the M60A3 with reactive armor and an updated powerpack, but we persist in thinking we need to airdrop or airland tanks.
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Post by Elwood on Jun 28, 2023 13:17:29 GMT
Thanks guys!
Am I wrong in reading the mission statement of the M10 as laid down by army that it is similar to the mission of the Tank Destroyer, that is it is to support infantry with its gun but not to take on enemy tanks in one on one engagements? Not identical but some overlap. Maybe I'm trying to put squares in round holes here.
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Post by miker on Jun 28, 2023 13:39:14 GMT
No. Tank Destroyers were imperfectly designed to fight tanks as their primary mission and free up tanks for break through and support. Their modern counterpart in the Army is anti-tank vehicles. Soon after Desert Storm, the M901 Improved Tow Vehicle was done away with due to providing M2/M3 Bradleys with TOWs and it was too slow. The AT role is currently filled with TOWs mounted on HMMWVs/JTLV and on a Stryker variant.
The M8/M10/AGS mission was to provide fire support to infantry units, but with some anti-tank capability (ammunition). Neither were armored very well.
In WW2, light tanks were primarly for reconnaissance, thus the 37mm gun on the M3/M5 Stuart and the 75mm on the M24 and M41.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 28, 2023 16:54:53 GMT
Just to be a little more clear here Mister E, Mike is saying that only one company of M10's will be with each brigade of the light(er), airborne, and air assault divisions. That is correct in practice probably, but the structure calls for those three companies to be part of an M-10 battalion included in the new model division as division troops, meaning the division commander allocates resources to the brigades as he sees fit. So, the proposed organization does not preclude the M-10 battalion from operating in battalion strength.
The new light(er) division is really nothing more than a modernized WWII vintage Infantry division that includes it's own assault gun/TD battalion. Not much changed in structure from 1945. Certainly more capable than 1945, but the same basic structure. It's the same with the other four "type" divisions Armored (Reinforced), Armored, Airborne, and Air Assault. Not a lot of difference, just a lot of Army feel good bull shit that makes the Chief and Vice Chief think they have accomplished something during their tenure.
NOTE: I refer to these divisions as Light(er) because they really are not LIGHT as I understand those words. We made a big mistake by thinking we should field Light Divisions back in the 1980's. I was part of the Pentagon Light Division task force that implemented General Wickham's White Paper, calling for organizations that were relatively small, highly mobile strategically, but unfortunately lacked anything more than foot mobility once they got on the ground. There was a guy in Germany, I forget his name, that published a paper indicating that the brigade was the right level for that type of organization, not the division. He was correct, but we were so full of ourselves we would not listen. His idea was plug these light units in where we needed them. If you are fighting ANYONE in the Ardennes for instance, this is the type of unit you want to do the fighting. Well the long and short of it is the light division lasted less than ten years, and we went back to same old same old. We still need those type units. The model should be based upon the WWII 1st Special Service Force, or the 5307th Composite Unit Provisional, and their recon elements should be something along the lines of the Alamo Scouts, and trained in the same way they were. Stepping off my soap box now.
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