|
Post by quincannon on Mar 2, 2017 20:56:17 GMT
On the founders thread, one devoted to the administration of this web site, we have had an afternoon long discussion on of all things the 4.2 inch M30 heavy mortar. That is not what the founders thread wa designed for, but it often happens, and there is no harm done and no one seems to mind.
That got me to thinking, which is always a dangerous proposition, that we should have a thread devoted to the Army itself, how it organizes, how it equips itself, how it thinks, and more importantly the roots of the three areas aforementioned.
The U S Army is unique in all the world. It is very much the frontier army not of LBH and the west, but the frontier that shaped our culture as Americans going back to Jamestown and Plymouth Rock. We do think differently and as a consequence, organize and equip ourselves differently. We maintain traditions, but are not slaves to them. We find out what works for us and then find out where, at what level, it works best.
We are slow to change, yet more advanced at times. German officers visiting Fort Knox in the mid 1930's said our development of armored doctrine was far in advance of both theirs and the British, who had been working on it longer. We had melded tanks and Infantry into a combined team at lower levels than they or the British had, and had a much firmer hand on command and control.
That is but one example, and I would submit to each of you that it is more a reflection of culture than it is that we were smarter.
Therefore what is proposed is that this thread be reserved for the discussion of anything having to do with the U S Army as a whole, in any time period, and included in that is the colonial military experience that predates 14 June 1775.
If Beth finds it advisable then perhaps the discussion of the 4.2 can be transferred here, to sweeten the pot, provided that is agreeable to the participants. If so Beth, start with Pork Chop Hill.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 2, 2017 23:49:55 GMT
Sure I have no problem. I will have to do it post by post.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 2, 2017 23:53:37 GMT
Yanmacca wrote:
This is a bit off topic but I was going around a charity shop this morning and picked up a copy of the movie Pork Chop Hill on DVD for 50 pence, I know that some of you have seen this film, but apart from the scenes were Peck and his platoon scale the hill (which was badly done in my view), it is the best Korean war film out of the lot, I should know I have about six of them, Retreat Hell, Fixed Bayonets and Men in War come close, but PCH is my favorite.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 2, 2017 23:54:43 GMT
QC wrote:
Actually it was Peck's company, and what was so badly done about it. Been a long time, but I do not recall anything particularly bad. Joe Clemmons (Peck) was the technical advisor on the film.
The best Korean War film in my estimation was one never seen, and to the best of my knowledge never put out on tape or DVD "Hold Back The Night", a fictional account of a Marine Company at Chosin. The film was very good. The book, much better.
PCH is a completely, as far as possible, depiction of those last days of conflict in Kor
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 2, 2017 23:55:22 GMT
Yanmacca wrote:
It was Pecks Company Chuck, but he choose to lead one of the platoons, another one was on his left and a third in reserve, I don’t think he had his weapons platoon.
If you look at the scenes were they moved up towards the wire, you see the camera switch back and forth between Pecks men and the dug in Chinese, now these defenders were throwing stick grenades and shooting off 9mm sub-machine guns, now these weapons are close quarter weapons, which are really for targets below 50 yards, so if you see Pecks men they are still waking up hill as if they were not yet under such heavy fire, which would suggest that they were still well over 50 yards from the line. They do in fact reach the wire, so it should have been then when they short range stuff opened up.
When they get up close with the Chinese the film gets going and I cannot fault it.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 2, 2017 23:55:57 GMT
QC wrote: ..... those last days of conflict in Korea. Those soldiers and more importantly their lives were pawns in a game of king of the hill, where the truce lines would be drawn. It was no longer a fight to defeat the enemy. It was more along the lines of we can't let them have this or that or we will lose face, who will give in first.
The positional struggles in Korea from mid 51 to mid 53, were far different than from June 50 to June 51. During those months PCH would have been incessantly bombed, and shelled, then maneuvered around.
Knew a guy once who was in 7th DIVARTY supporting the Pork Chop Hill operations. He told me they emptied the 7th ID ammo supply point, and were well into corps stocks. After it was over all their howitzers needed replacement.
|
|
benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
|
Post by benteen on Mar 2, 2017 23:57:16 GMT
The thread is an excellent idea. May I recommend a book that gives incite to the inner working of the US Army and its Officers
Once an Eagle by Anton Myrer...One of the best, if not the best book I have read.
Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 2, 2017 23:58:16 GMT
Yanmacca: You can get Hold Back the Night on DVD Chuck; Link
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 2, 2017 23:59:25 GMT
Yanmacca: That would put it in line with other nations as the 4.2in and 120mm mortar was such a good infantry support weapon, it was a lot lighter than a 105 and it could be crewed by the infantry and not the artillery, I have always classed them as regimental mortars, with the 81mm as battalion mortars and the 60mm company mortars.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 3, 2017 0:00:28 GMT
QC: Having been exposed to all three (81mm, 4.2", and 105mm How) the skill sets for both mortar and cannon crews and fire direction are essentially the same.
Artillerymen think their shit does not stink, and Infantrymen knows that theirs does. Other than attitude the skills sets are the same.
The first thing to understand about American organization, training, and the soldiers themselves is that they are unlike any other on planet earth. That is how it should and must be, for the soldier is merely a reflection of the culture he serves.
You have obviously never humped the baseplate of a 4.2" off the back of a truck or you would have second thoughts about commenting on how light it is. Artillery crews could get their guns in place as fast or faster than a 4.2" crew.
Mortar crews often remark that they do for a hobby or pastime, what artillerymen do for a profession. That's bull shit, but it makes them feel better.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 3, 2017 0:01:42 GMT
Yanmacca:
Bloody hell Chuck, I am sure that all of these heavy mortars came with a twin wheeled carriage for towing, this would allow them to be towed fully set up by a light truck and could be brought into action just as quick as a 105.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 3, 2017 0:02:41 GMT
QC: Well if you are sure about it, you would surely be wrong. The 4.2" Mortar does not have any wheels, and they are set up by hand by taking four very heavy pieces off the back of a truck and setting them in the ground, assembling them, all before you are anywhere near the process of bringing them into alinement.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 3, 2017 0:03:24 GMT
Colt45 wrote: The 4.2" mortar is VERY HEAVY. In our combat support company in armor, the 4.2s were mounted in the back of special version M113's. There is no way those crews were going to hump those things in and out of a vehicle, set up, fire a mission, then load back up and move. Most infantry units in my day used a smaller caliber, lighter mortar that wasn't so hard on the body to move.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 3, 2017 0:04:01 GMT
Colt45:
The mortar platoon of an armor battalion was able to wheel into position, run out the aiming stakes, set up to fire, and be able to take a fire mission within a few minutes. Then they could retrieve the stakes and move out to another location to fire again. They generally only fired 1 mission from a given spot, as staying in one place too long was a good way to get incoming yourself. The mobility allowed for rapid response to missions as well as saved on the poor snuffys who had to deal with a mortar that is a real backbreaker if moved manually.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 3, 2017 0:04:46 GMT
QC: We did adapt the M30 mortar so that it could be carried within and fired from inside a specially adapted M113 mortar carrier. I forget the model number. Still though it was dismounted from the carrier by hand when you wished to emplace that mortar in a dug in position, that being when you are going to remain in one place for an extended period of time, then the carrier itself displaced away from the mortar.
Carriers have mounted radios, and when they transmit you are waving a red flag electronically to the enemy saying we are here, shell us. Not at all heathy. Under these circumstances you remote your radio from your carrier to the mortar position so that you can maintain communications. The signal you emit comes from the antenna of the radio, not your remote station.
Another way to do this is remain mounted with radio silence, then move after every fire mission. Don't and you are dead.
A dismounted mortar is very vulnerable to counter battery fire. You must be very careful in how you set up, and you had always better be prepared to move. You cannot dig deep enough in the modern day to avoid electronic detection, counter mortar radar, or plain old fashioned crater analysis.
Shoot then move is the only way to stay alive.
|
|