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Post by quincannon on Nov 24, 2016 4:21:59 GMT
Mac: Has there been much in the press in Australia about sunken ships being illegally salvaged in the Java Sea and surrounding waters. There was an article in I believe The Guardian about several of the ships involved in the Battle of the Java Sea including HMS Exeter, a couple of Dutch cruisers and a destroyer disappearing as a result of illegal salvage operations. One of the ships that is now gone is USS Perch, although she was not in the Java Sea battle she was lost nearby. All her personnel were captured, so she is not a war grave, but the others were.
I shudder to think what would happen if these bastards ever went into the waters between Guadalcanal and Tulagi.
The Dutch are having a fit over this as they should. Knowing the Japanese culture, they would consider such actions as an act of war.
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Post by chardvc on Nov 24, 2016 8:07:26 GMT
Mac: Has there been much in the press in Australia about sunken ships being illegally salvaged in the Java Sea and surrounding waters. There was an article in I believe The Guardian about several of the ships involved in the Battle of the Java Sea including HMS Exeter, a couple of Dutch cruisers and a destroyer disappearing as a result of illegal salvage operations. One of the ships that is now gone is USS Perch, although she was not in the Java Sea battle she was lost nearby. All her personnel were captured, so she is not a war grave, but the others were.
I shudder to think what would happen if these bastards ever went into the waters between Guadalcanal and Tulagi.
The Dutch are having a fit over this as they should. Knowing the Japanese culture, they would consider such actions as an act of war. There has been a little bit in local papers here about the fate of the Exeter. She was a Devonport (Plymouth) boat and a high percentage of her crew were West Country men, many of whom had been involved in the Battle of the River Plate. Relatives are not impressed but the reaction is probably muted by time and distance.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 24, 2016 12:07:48 GMT
I shudder to think what would happen if these bastards ever went into the waters between Guadalcanal and Tulagi.
Chuck, is that area known as iron bottom sound? Or is that around the area known as the slot.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 24, 2016 12:51:31 GMT
Duane/rebcav could hold forth on these pirates of the deep. He is a Marine and a diver. We have many wrecks here in the Chesapeake much visiting, little theft that I know of. Legitimate registered salvage is one thing, grave robbing is another. A bell was brought up several years ago for a city the wreck was named for. A number of wrecks have become favorite diving sites and reefs.
I would imagine punishment would be tough in international waters, a cursory search of charges and penalties shows that they vary widely around the world.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 24, 2016 12:58:12 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 24, 2016 13:14:53 GMT
Well I cannot see the difference between digging up the area around the little bighorn battlefield and taking stuff from the Titanic, I suppose the sailors that drowned from the later sinking's say from WWII, would still have close relatives who are still alive and hold memories, and I suppose one of the thinks they could do is donate some of the cash made on any artifacts to these surviving wife's or children of the sailors.
I seem to recall DC having very strong thoughts on this and I am sure he agreed with taking souvenirs off the Titanic, those posts of his should still be on line somewhere.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 24, 2016 14:12:37 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 24, 2016 14:32:02 GMT
Now that's a different kettle of fish Tom, while I think it is ok to take small items or even precious metals like gold, taking the whole ship is wrong, as that is like grave robbing as you are taking the whole grave. Like I said earlier, we lifted the wreck of the Mary Rose from the Solent and it is sitting proudly in a maritime museum, but nicking the wreck for scrap metal is a terrible thing. link
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Post by quincannon on Nov 24, 2016 14:46:59 GMT
Yes Ian, it is Iron Bottom Sound and the lower portion of the Slot.
For us they hold the same emotional, if not legal status as the Arizona and Utah at Pearl Harbor. They are in fact, if not in law, a National Cemetery.
The Japanese have even stoner feelings in the matters, and many of those ships I referred to are theirs.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 24, 2016 14:47:57 GMT
Talking about ships, has anyone saw the new movie about the USS Indianapolis? I have a copy on DVD, but I am saving it to watch over Christmas.
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Post by yanmacca on Nov 24, 2016 14:51:13 GMT
I agree Chuck, they are cemetery's and should be respected as so, but if some divers brought up some naval artifacts such as a deck gunners tin hat or even the deck gun itself, then I personally don't have a problem with that.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Nov 24, 2016 17:15:04 GMT
I find it difficult to believe that the US Navy did not realize the Perch was being salvaged by scrappers. The Perch along with the Houston, Exeter and the other ships deserve better fates than being part of some product made of repurposed steel from a War Grave.
I am sure the British government will be active in preserving the Repulse and Prince of Wales and the Dutch should respond as well to save what they can of their ships. This incident brings forth the old dichotomy of those desiring to preserve the past and those who are doing what they can to feed their families. If one's children are hungry preserving an ole piece of sunken steel seems to be far down the list.
I must admit that the HNLMS De Ruyter was a ship only a mother could love. She was perhaps the ugliest man o' war ever built in the history of shipping perhaps only rivaled by the Spanish Espana class. They look like a lego ships built by a child who ran out of patience and just threw stuff together at the end. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Nov 25, 2016 16:01:17 GMT
Yes Dave De Ruyter was ugly as home made sin. She does remind me a little of the DKM Admiral Graf Spee.
DeRuyter, Java, and Tromp were designed to be colonial cruisers. They did not have much combat value, but were useful for their intended purpose
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Post by Beth on Nov 25, 2016 23:40:27 GMT
First it is disgusting to think of someone illegally salvaging those ships--however if you further google about the story you will find that they don't know yet what has caused these ships to suddenly disappear and that salvage is just one possibility. A salvage operation on that scale would have taken a long time been difficult because of the depth and required ships with large cranes which would have been noticed. www.sciencealert.com/several-wwii-shipwrecks-have-mysteriously-vanished-from-under-the-sea
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2016 0:04:34 GMT
True they are deep.
One ship disappears - a mystery
Two ships disappear - a coincidence
Three or more disappear - illegal salvage
Going deep ain't so hard anymore Beth. You can get in, get part, and get out fairly fast. Then come back for more later.
The approximate positions of those ships has been known for a good while.
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