dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Nov 26, 2016 1:52:39 GMT
The shipwrecks in Iron Bottom Sound should be safe from the alleged scrappers as they are in depths of 2,000 to 4,500 feet which would be beyond the point of cost effective salvaging.
What is driving this illegal activity? Is it just greed and the activities of reprobates who would steal from an honored warriors grave and care not a fig? Or is it a indication of the desperate poverty that exists in parts of the world which leads to the illegal poaching of endangered animals as the elephant, gorilla and rhino or insanely dangerous forms of mining?
The Java Sea covers an area about the size of New Mexico which would certainly increase the difficulties for authorities to effectively search for illegal scrapping but the locations of the wrecks are known to all so why have there been no arrests or seizure of vessels and equipment of the vandals? Could it be indifference? The search for Malaysia flight 370 encompassed much of the Java Sea yet no one noticed any salvage operations? I am sure there are answers to my questions but just not sure where to direct them. Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Nov 26, 2016 2:58:26 GMT
Or could it be that they are still there and the data showing them missing is wrong? Until they do further research one shouldn't jump to any conclusion.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2016 4:33:15 GMT
Those wreck sites have long been know and effectively plotted Beth. Read in the story about the half a ship left at one of the wreck sites. If half is there, where is the other half?
Dave: What does a warship have that no other vessel has? Armor plate. I have seen 70 year old tanks in very deteriorated states, range targets and such, exposed to the elements for decades, but the rolled armor plate is still good, reusable, thus valuable. Plus there is a widespread black market for anything salvaged off a ship, such as a bell, ships compass, dishes, implements of all kinds, just like there is for ancient artifacts found at dig sites, and stolen art. Collectors pay big bucks for this stuff, just so they can get it out of their closet and look at it, and having the satisfaction of owning a piece of history.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Nov 26, 2016 18:20:18 GMT
Chuck
I agree that there is money to be made robbing graves. King Tut, German soldiers in Eastern Europe as well as the ransom attempt of Charlie Chaplin's body are examples but the wrecks in Iron Bottom Sound are to deep to salvage without significant expense and equipment.
The Java Sea wrecks are fairly shallow, average depth 150 feet, so must be protected by the authorities. It may require the countries with war graves--- Japan, Holland, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and the United States---to patrol the area in a joint fashion similar to the Anti-Piracy measures taken off Somalia.
I believe there is a great difference between salvaging the wreckage from a civilian vessel compared to a war grave! Military deaths deserve and require a higher standard of protection and respect. Men and women who have lost their lives in service to their country have earned an honored rest safe from human greed.
The gray area to me is what Yan mentioned regarding the recovery of naval cannons or items in a debris field. The protection of man o' war shipwrecks is a post war action. America salvaged the USS Maine after the Spanish American War the USS Utah, USS Oklahoma and the USS Arizona after Pearl Harbor. The Maine was removed because she was blocking the harbor of Havana. Of the 3 battleships at Pearl Harbor, the Utah was moved more than being salvaged whereas the Oklahoma and Arizona were re-purposed with their main battery cannons being removed. The honoring of the Arizona, and Utah as war graves was after the War. Regards Dave
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Post by rebcav on Nov 26, 2016 19:17:42 GMT
Duane/rebcav could hold forth on these pirates of the deep. He is a Marine and a diver. We have many wrecks here in the Chesapeake much visiting, little theft that I know of. Legitimate registered salvage is one thing, grave robbing is another. A bell was brought up several years ago for a city the wreck was named for. A number of wrecks have become favorite diving sites and reefs. I would imagine punishment would be tough in international waters, a cursory search of charges and penalties shows that they vary widely around the world. I will most definitely hold forth on these thieving low-lifes. Now, just to set the bona fides..... I have NO problem salvaging a wreck that has been properly surveyed and mapped. I have NO problem with the recovery of Historical Artifacts. I've done both. I have a HUGE problem with grave robbing assh*les who desecrate the graves of Brave Men, be it on land or in the Sea. If they're THAT broke, maybe they should rob a bank like a REAL man.... These wrecks are WAR GRAVES for cripes' sake. I assisted on the recovery of the C.S.S. Hunley. (Nothing glamorous, I was a back up Safety Diver for the Hard-Hat Guys.) EVERY MINUTE we were in the water, we realized that we were dealing with a vessel that held the remains of the Hunley's valiant Crew. And we did EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to ensure that their tomb was brought up INTACT, treated with the RESPECT it and they deserved, and once ashore; buried with FULL MILITARY HONORS as soon as possible after they were brought home. These wrecks do not lose their significance once they sink. In fact, they become even more relevant and valuable once they do so. They become time capsules of Naval Warfare and Architecture, as well as what knowledge of Life and "Popular Culture" may be gleaned from any artifacts recovered. They are an invaluable window into the past. If they contain the remains of Brave Men, and IF it's possible to bring them home RESPECTFULLY and HONORABLY- Then by all means do so. If not, let those Gallant Souls REST. And treat their resting place with the RESPECT and REVERANCE THEY HAVE EARNED. Pass legislation to protect these sites in perpetuity, and punish severely those who lack the Respect and Honor necessary to abide by said legislation. Sorry 'bout The Rant. Respectfully Submitted, Duane
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Nov 27, 2016 0:09:28 GMT
Thank you Duane. I have a house on the Chesapeake, at the Potomac, Northampton County, VA. If you are still in NC and have the time to blow off some steam one weekend, I have a couple of sons that could help us have a brew or two. Followed up the next AM with a Bloody Mary. If so inclined, hit me up with a PM. They both Army, I USAF, we would be proud to host a Marine.
Regards, Tom
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Post by rebcav on Nov 27, 2016 0:40:51 GMT
Thank you Duane. I have a house on the Chesapeake, at the Potomac, Northampton County, VA. If you are still in NC and have the time to blow off some steam one weekend, I have a couple of sons that could help us have a brew or two. Followed up the next AM with a Bloody Mary. If so inclined, hit me up with a PM. They both Army, I USAF, we would be proud to host a Marine. Regards, Tom Sir; GAME ON!!!!!! Check your inbox...... Aloha, Duane
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Post by Beth on Nov 27, 2016 0:47:36 GMT
I know that this is about Naval graves but grave robbing in general has become a modern problem with people stealing metal as well as architectural features.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Nov 27, 2016 0:58:44 GMT
There certainly is a problem of vandals illegal digging in many battlefields as well as individual graves especially in rural areas throughout the South. The value of artifacts is so high that criminals are willing to desecrate sites and graves in a search for booty. Regards Dave
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Post by rebcav on Nov 27, 2016 1:00:59 GMT
I know that this is about Naval graves but grave robbing in general has become a modern problem with people stealing metal as well as architectural features. You're absolutely right, Beth. And it's unconscionable. And some of it is even Politically Motivated. Which makes it all the more disgraceful. Your Obedient Servant, Ma'am, Duane
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Post by royalwelsh on Feb 18, 2017 0:25:36 GMT
The Royal Navy visit the Prince of Wales and Repulse wrecks off Kuantan annually, and divers place white ensigns on them. The message is unambiguous. Satellites will be keeping a closer eye on them now.
The waters in the Java Sea are shallow. Exeter's loss was not a traumatic strategic defeat, unlike Force Z.
RW
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Post by Beth on Feb 18, 2017 1:16:28 GMT
I was just wondering the other day if there was anything new on this story.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 18, 2017 1:47:32 GMT
Has anyone heard anything lately about the supposed discover of the USS Herring (SS 233) by the Russians last summer? It seems that if she was discovered the US Navy would be on it quickly. Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Feb 18, 2017 3:27:22 GMT
Has anyone heard anything lately about the supposed discover of the USS Herring (SS 233) by the Russians last summer? It seems that if she was discovered the US Navy would be on it quickly. Regards Dave And do what??? It's not like it can be raised. BTW, did you know there is exactly one source for that story. Just one and a funded by the Russian government. Even the wiki link about it only gives that one source.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 18, 2017 3:52:33 GMT
Beth said "And do what??? It's not like it can be raised. BTW, did you know there is exactly one source for that story. Just one and a funded by the Russian government. Even the wiki link about it only gives that one source. "
I said "supposed" and the implication regarding our Navy should act to determine if it was the Herring and to note the condition of the wreck and location. We have done similar actions for the other US Subs lost in WW II that have been located. I am aware that there is only one source, a Russian Geographical Society (RGS) and Defense Ministry, which prompted my request if anyone had heard additional information. I might add that the Russians discovered the USS Wahoo (SS 238) in 2006. Regards Dave
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