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Post by quincannon on Feb 28, 2017 11:30:33 GMT
Dave: Richmond K. Turner made some decisions during the course of World War II that were both critical and controversial. A couple of them effected your father in the most direct manner. Turner was a functioning maintenance alcoholic, and the fact was well known by his superiors, peers, and associates. Hornfischer goes deep into this in his new book I mentioned several weeks ago.
As admirals are not known for carrying their own golf bags, one must then wonder how he got and kept his booze on board.
Now Turner was a brilliant man, and I think history tells us that his decisions were mostly correct, but that does not mean it was right to place himself and his needs above that of his subordinates. Persons in position of such authority must be clean as Caesar's wife. Had, for instance, one of his subordinates been brought before him for dereliction of duty, caused by intoxication, how was he to sit in judgment? I have a very low tolerance for these things. A pilfered turkey is one thing. Sneaking a few beers or even a fifth of Scotch on board ship, can be winked at and given a slap on the wrist, all with a grimace that would scare the shit out of the devil. Direct disregard for the rules so some goddamned admiral can stay well lubricated goes beyond my personal threshold.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 28, 2017 12:17:53 GMT
And I thought that all USN Ships were dry, I recall reading some accounts written by ex-RN sailors during WW2 and how the US Boys loved sailing on board our ships as we were notorious for our daily tot of navy rum (which could strip paint), another thing is that the legal age to drink alcohol is 18 in Britain and America it was 21, so most of our young sailors were hardened drinks by the age of 21.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 28, 2017 13:26:33 GMT
They are dry. That's he issue. They are dry.
When you were raising children, and you told them not to do this or that, then they see you do that which you told them not to, your credibility as a father just went down the toilet. When your father then saw you breaking he rules you had set for your children, my inclination is that based upon what you have told me about him in the past, is to say that he would grab you by the scruff of your neck and frog march your sweet ass to the woodshed citing the fact that you had been hypocritical to his grandchildren, and that you were about to pay a severe price for your transgressions.
When admirals make rules for those they command, then violate those same rules, the toll is taken on good order and discipline. When senior admirals condone or overlook the breaking of rules by a junior admiral, it is in my view a very bad thing, and I do not care what their reasoning is.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 28, 2017 13:41:02 GMT
I don't know were you are taking this Chuck, I never said that this was wrong our right, you and Dave were talking about sneaking alcohol on board US Navy ships, if the USN wanted dry ships well it is jolly well up to them, if RN deemed it fit to give their sailors a tot a rum per day then it is also up to them. As I was just stating facts as I see them along with some old stories.
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Post by yanmacca on Feb 28, 2017 19:54:28 GMT
Chuck why did you need info on the 88mm deck gun mount, are you going to model it? link
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Post by quincannon on Feb 28, 2017 20:45:29 GMT
Where I was taking it Ian is nowhere but illustrating that officers have a duty to set the example by their conduct, just as parents and leaders in all walks of life do. We cannot ever, any of us be in a position to say one thing, or demand one type of action from anyone under our authority, then deliberately and in front of them do just the thing we prohibit them from doing. Our words and authority become meaningless when we do.
You don't drink on U S Navy ship, and that rule applies to the lowest seaman recruit, and it also applies to the highest ranking officer aboard.
No, no U Boats. Just curiosity.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on Feb 28, 2017 22:21:34 GMT
Ian I am unsure what the situation is with the modern US Navy but back in the WW II era alcohol was the in thing. In the pacific theater enlisted men had little access to hard liquor and often just a couple of warm beers on liberty, so being civilians with little care of old hoary naval regulations or promotions they made their own.
US Sailors set up illegal stills aboard submarines and destroyers that I know about but presume it was done on all the other ships, both capital and support. You must remember Prohibition had been repealed in 1933 and many of these men had a lot of experience brewing moonshine, apple jack or hooch. US torpedoes contained 180 proof grain alcohol which was tainted with chemicals to make it poisonous. The sailors set up stills to evaporate the pure alcohol and diluted it with fruit juice.
We did the same thing back in college days only we bought 180 proof pure grain without additives which we cut with fruit juice at parties in the great pursuit. Sadly it never worked for me but I am sure there were better hunters than me back then. Regards Dave
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Post by quincannon on Feb 28, 2017 23:12:24 GMT
I am very glad you wrote that Dave in light of my last post. You expressed reality, and that is a good thing.
The point trying to be made to Ian, is that there was a penalty for such activities when you got caught. Alcohol and duty, particularly on a warship, do not walk hand in hand. The punishment for these offenses must be based upon the circumstances of the infraction but they must be severe. Caught having a bottle of booze in your footlocker is one thing, and going on watch under the influence of alcohol is another. The first far less an offense than the second.
The point is that when it is an officer, especially one of such high rank as Turner that is flaunting the rules he is duty bound to enforce, the whole system of authority and discipline break down.
It's just like a Pastor speaking against fornication with loose women on Sunday morning, looking down while in the pulpit only to discover he did not zip his fly after similar activities on Saturday night.
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