mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 16, 2017 10:30:17 GMT
Going with what Custer had played himself into, how about this counter punch. Immediately from Custer's first sight of Reno in the valley and the warriors streaming out to meet him; Custer sends his message to Benteen, in greater detail, telling him to enter the valley. Custer then makes speed to get himself back into the valley. He may just arrive in time to have himself and Benteen coming in to put a squeeze on the wrriors around Reno and set them off back towards the village in some disarray. Fanciful? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on May 16, 2017 14:37:30 GMT
You are assuming that Custer and Benteen arrive at the same time. If one arrives before the other you are risking piecemeal attacks If the first to arrive awaits the second you are giving the Indians the gift of time.
I think a better course is for the first to arrive to establish a fall back position for Reno, gather him in, await the arrival of the second element then see what develops.
A counterpunch is done from a position of consolidated strength. Distance has precluded the massing of that consolidated strength in a timely manner.
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Post by yanmacca on May 16, 2017 15:24:42 GMT
If Custer had used Reno as a honey pot to attract all the fighting men out of the village, then he should have made sure that he had the strength to hold his own, and this is where Benteen comes in, as his battalion would have nearly doubled Reno's strength. In my mind dragging all the warriors onto your position is one thing, but holding them there is another. If they dislodge you from your holding position, then you are of no use to any subsidiary attacks, which defeats the object.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 16, 2017 22:19:08 GMT
Both good replies! My point about sending a more detailed/ vastly better order to Benteen was to elicit these kinds of response from people who have more knowledge than I will ever have. Was there the possibility of communication between Custer and Benteen to form any plan or timing to coordinate a valley entry? Cheers
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Post by Beth on May 16, 2017 22:23:33 GMT
I think that the Duke of Wellington was one of the best counter punchers of them all, but I would guess that in relation to the BLBH, the cavalry was too weak in number and would require the assistance of a couple of Infantry battalions. But Custer didn't have any Infantry, so if he was going to adopt this strategy, then he must drag every last warrior out of that village and on to a ground of his own choosing, then have his enemy attack into concentrated fire in an attempt to break their will and fortitude, which I guess is something that they failed to do in the battle itself. Bottom line is that he has to get them running and the best way to do that is to knock them down in large numbers and once they decide that this is not healthy and attempt to withdraw, he could catch them demoralized and in the open with mounted attacks from all of his companies. I agree that Wellington is one of the best counter punchers and often wonder if he had been in Custer's place in the Crow's nest how the battle would have gone. Wellington also had the advantage of being able to read a battlefield and often seeing where it was beforehand. He knew how he could use the ground itself to his advantage before the battle took place. He also knew he enemy well. Wellington actively used intelligence and even at Waterloo when he missed the French's rapid movement North, he had the ability to quickly react and regroup thanks use reliable maps and intelligence. Custer had a regiment, faulty intelligence, no understanding of his enemy or the territory. He allowed his enemy to chose the battlefield as well control the battle. Custer squandered the size and strength of his regiment by dividing his efforts too many times. He gave up the element of surprise as well as the offensive so he quickly was limited to reacting to conditions on the battlefield instead of acting. Perhaps looking at Napoleon at Waterloo has parallels with Custer especially on how Napoleon wasted Grouche like Custer did Benteen and the Battle of Quatre Bras acted a bit like Custer wanted Reno. Wellington controlled Hougoumont and Le Haye like the NA controlled the fords. Napoleon had to fight all day in an attempt control the battlefield and in the end he when he finally succeeded, Napoleon had expended his forces and artillery advantage to Wellington. Napoleon though unlike Custer kept his rear open so he was able to retreat. In the end, both battles were massacres with one army destroyed and the other left to claim victory but after the first thrill of victory, the English public did not appreciate the bloody cost paid. Of course I can be totally wrong in my comparison but it's the similarity I see with the two battles that piqued my interest again in LBH.
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Post by yanmacca on May 17, 2017 14:30:28 GMT
Yes the French humbugged him in their move north, but one wonders how he managed to control all the formations under his command, he had Dutch, Germans [Hanover & Brunswicks], Nassau [Luxembourg] in his ranks.
Wellington was a well-educated man who went on the become priminister of Britain, but if Trump could succeed then maybe Custer could too, imagine GAC ruling the USA.
Funny enough men from Luxembourger fought for both sides, as Napoleon also conscripted men from this Duchy to fight for him.
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 17, 2017 15:42:02 GMT
Ian, Custer would have had a chance in 1880, had he won at the LBH or been a large part of winning the Centennial Campaign. People were beginning to tire of the Republican swamp and good old boy network that was then existent at the time, but the Democrat Party of the time was a mess. Trump won for the same reason Brexit passed. People are fed up with the elites telling the populace that we know better than you, while at the same time feathering their own nest, doing as they please, and catering to the special interest group du jour, enabling themselves to remain in power. Trump won by promising to drain that swamp, bringing jobs home, and catering to folks that felt disenfranchised. THIS IS NOTMEANT TO START A POLITICAL DISCUSSION! Sometimes issues outweigh popularity.
Regards, Tom
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benteen
First Lieutenant
"Once An Eagle
Posts: 406
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Post by benteen on May 17, 2017 17:57:11 GMT
Was there the possibility of communication between Custer and Benteen to form any plan or timing to coordinate a valley entry? Cheers Mac, Good ideas on your part, however if Custer was going to use Martini to carry the message than I think communication is a mute point. Remember Lt Cook felt he had to write a note, he felt Martini wasnt even able to carry a simple message. Now we are talking about carrying a tactical message. Benteen is bound to ask for the current status, what is going on etc and Martini would not be able to tell him. When Martini took his message to Benteen, Benteen asked him about the situation and Martini gave him the exact opposite info. Just because someone does not have a grasp of the English language does not make them a bad person or bad soldier, just a lousy messenger Be Well Dan
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Post by Beth on May 17, 2017 18:38:35 GMT
History is a circle with the same conditions existing time and time again, nothing is ever really new except for walking on the moon. We say we should learn from history but in truth we can only create more.
I don't know if Custer would have gotten the Democratic nod if he had been successful but perhaps he might have been groomed up for an office or a cabinet placement. He was a favorite of Herald which was a powerful paper. Unfortunately we can't tell if he would have been a successful candidate because there is no way to gauge how popular he would have become. Wellington's star faded right after Waterloo because it was a blood bath but he rose again. Custer might have made a name for himself but if it was a bloody brutal battle with most of his regiment killed the public might not have hailed him as a hero. You also have to factor how much credit for the success would have gone to Custer personally and how much would have gone to the Republicans?
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Defense
May 17, 2017 20:59:35 GMT
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 17, 2017 20:59:35 GMT
Ian, Custer would have had a chance in 1880, had he won at the LBH or been a large part of winning the Centennial Campaign. People were beginning to tire of the Republican swamp and good old boy network that was then existent at the time, but the Democrat Party of the time was a mess. Trump won for the same reason Brexit passed. People are fed up with the elites telling the populace that we know better than you, while at the same time feathering their own nest, doing as they please, and catering to the special interest group du jour, enabling themselves to remain in power. Trump won by promising to drain that swamp, bringing jobs home, and catering to folks that felt disenfranchised. THIS IS NOTMEANT TO START A POLITICAL DISCUSSION! Sometimes issues outweigh popularity. Regards, Tom Trump did a masterful job of campaigning and using the media to his advantage in somewhat the same way Custer boosted his career through PR, etc. Both men understand/understood what the public wants to hear. Delivering on promises is another matter. Best, David
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Post by deadwoodgultch on May 17, 2017 21:06:56 GMT
As I said this was not an out and out statement of political commentary, Beth's post was to the point!
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on May 18, 2017 1:04:40 GMT
Hey everyone. Our president has a boatload of trouble as of about 17:00 EDT tonight. It is probably best to not add to it in print. That is not our purview. The whole affair will be investigated by an honorable man who is not subject to political interference, and the chips will fall where they may. If he has done nothing wrong he does not have a thing to worry about. If he has it will be discovered and appropriate action taken.
I lived through Watergate. I watched a death of a thousand cuts occur every day in the Washington Post. It was not frigging pretty, and I hoped never to see any of its like again. Our distrust of government in large part stems from that nightmare.
We must let this thing play out and take its natural course. After that each of us must judge the affair for ourselves. That is the American way.
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Post by Beth on May 18, 2017 1:38:00 GMT
Ian, Custer would have had a chance in 1880, had he won at the LBH or been a large part of winning the Centennial Campaign. People were beginning to tire of the Republican swamp and good old boy network that was then existent at the time, but the Democrat Party of the time was a mess. Trump won for the same reason Brexit passed. People are fed up with the elites telling the populace that we know better than you, while at the same time feathering their own nest, doing as they please, and catering to the special interest group du jour, enabling themselves to remain in power. Trump won by promising to drain that swamp, bringing jobs home, and catering to folks that felt disenfranchised. THIS IS NOTMEANT TO START A POLITICAL DISCUSSION! Sometimes issues outweigh popularity. Regards, Tom Trump did a masterful job of campaigning and using the media to his advantage in somewhat the same way Custer boosted his career through PR, etc. Both men understand/understood what the public wants to hear. Delivering on promises is another matter. Best, David We can not judge though how Custer was really perceived by the public. Our views of his place in history have been tainted by his post death career. I'm not even sure if the premise that he was expecting an office from the Democratic Convention are actually true, I know it appeared in one book but is there contemporary evidence of it? It could be he was thinking of launching into politics but it could be that he was more interested in being with movers and shakers. Remember if Custer would have survived the campaign he probably would have been absolute broke and needed money. I would suggest if you haven't read Stiles book to see how the NY rich reacted to Custer.
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Defense
May 18, 2017 2:47:23 GMT
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 18, 2017 2:47:23 GMT
Trump did a masterful job of campaigning and using the media to his advantage in somewhat the same way Custer boosted his career through PR, etc. Both men understand/understood what the public wants to hear. Delivering on promises is another matter. Best, David We can not judge though how Custer was really perceived by the public. Our views of his place in history have been tainted by his post death career. I'm not even sure if the premise that he was expecting an office from the Democratic Convention are actually true, I know it appeared in one book but is there contemporary evidence of it? It could be he was thinking of launching into politics but it could be that he was more interested in being with movers and shakers. Remember if Custer would have survived the campaign he probably would have been absolute broke and needed money. I would suggest if you haven't read Stiles book to see how the NY rich reacted to Custer. I have read Stiles' book.
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Post by yanmacca on May 18, 2017 13:36:05 GMT
Trump should act like a president and stop tweeting like some kid sat at the back of the class.
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