Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[yanmacca]

Amended map;

[yanmacca]

I have tried to cover the area asked for by Chuck;

[quincannon]

Mobility is the element of combat power that a mobile force never gives up if they can help it. The prevailing expression in that community is -- Death before Dismount. If they must do it they do two things - Keep their mounts close by, and scream like a raped banshee in the after action report.

Three groups are three groups, and could consist of a lot of possible combinations including two companies and a headquarters element. From what I have learned Indians often separated and defined these things by the number of flags (guidons) they counted. A force of two companies and a headquarters element would have three guidons, one for each company, and that personal vanity guidon Custer had carried from his days as a division commander in the AoP.

It is most likely (meaning good possibility but far from a sure thing) that CH crossed at B and went up hill through one of those ravines.

River crossings are only hard under conditions of river normality when those crossings are opposed. There is no indication that Crazy Horse or anyone else crossing at Ford D with two hundred would have been opposed. So to say Crazy Horse (or anyone else) crossing would have the same difficulty as cavalry that would have to make an opposed crossing, I believe to be in error.

Cartridges are cartridges. They indicate presence only. It is only when these cartridges have been examined forensically, and have been positively identified as belonging to a given unit that they start to have value to piecing these things together. One such is a pistol cartridge belonging to Company C found on F-F Ridge, and a cartridge from the same weapon found on BRE. Now that does not tell us who fired the weapons, and being a pistol deliberately loaded it, but when it is linked with the timing, it tells us that it was most likely a Company C soldier that fired the weapon in both places. The timing does not work out for an Indian to have captured it on F-F and get to BRE to use the weapon he captured,

Crazy Horse attacking from the north, northeast, nor the east does not tell us how he got to the place from which to launch his attack. First off it depends upon whom he attacked. If Crazy Horse was concerned only with the Company I and L sector, I can easily see where any of those from directions would be accurate.

MAPS:

The map with the graphics is just fine and portrays quite accurately that which we have been discussing. I wish the probable horse holding areas for Companies E and F had been retained, but that's OK as it is and not worth changing. Others may differ.

The new map shows all to much of battle ridge, and not enough of the area between the cemetery/visitors center and the trading post. LSH should be at the bottom and the trading post at the top. We are concerned in this upcoming phase of the discussion with the actions on battle ridge extension from the trading post to just beyond the visitors center. We may further discuss the withdrawal of Companies C, I, and L later and the map you presented this morning would be just fine for that purpose, so keep it handy for another day. 

Wide by intension.

Yes I think that Entrance Road Ravine was probably used by part, not all. I am quite convinced that Custer traveled in two groups for the sake of security. He did the same thing traveling from the divide to just before Ford A when he detached Reno. Security on the march should be a constant, and I see no reason for him to change his patterns. The second group probably would be found using the eastern side lip of BRE.

Can I have my morning coffee now?

[yanmacca]

I am about to have my afternoon mug of char now, so be my guest!

[quincannon]

Thank you, my innards will appreciate the warmth on what will prove to be a cold day here in the desert.

[yanmacca]

Its bloody freezing over here Chuck, real brass monkey weather.

[yanmacca]

Nov 30, 2016 13:16:00 GMT quincannon said:

The new map shows all to much of battle ridge, and not enough of the area between the cemetery/visitors center and the trading post. LSH should be at the bottom and the trading post at the top. We are concerned in this upcoming phase of the discussion with the actions on battle ridge extension from the trading post to just beyond the visitors center.

I thought I covered this area in one of the new maps, anyway here it is again;

[yanmacca]

Mac, those Indian cartridge finds would be around these two areas on a modern map (well I think so);

[yanmacca]

Which when transferred to our new topo map, would place them here (I think);

[azranger]

Nov 29, 2016 9:52:38 GMT mac said:

Nov 29, 2016 1:20:04 GMT Beth said:

Shoot, I know I asked that very question of Fred that day he was here--he put up a picture that clearly showed it.  I haven't found the picture that caused me to ask (Will keep searching-it's harder when someone delete's their account)

Fred's reply to my question  greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/post/8245

If we are talking the same one it's Crazy Horse Ravine. Ian even put up a map

Thanks for posting this again Beth I was just thinking of it.
Note the warrior firing positions shown in red on Cemetery Ridge and on BRE. The position on BRE looks near the crest of the ridge and would appear perhaps to be men firing down the ridge towards the monument. Remember our Company C gun in the ravine?!
The really interesting one is the more linear arrangement on Cemetery Ridge. Note how it runs along a contour line. Now look at the last picture posted here
greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/post/8230/thread
Thanks again Beth.
The picture was taken down the ravine from around the entrance gate and I reckon the terrain on the left of the picture could be that contour line. If so it may represent warriors concealed behind and along the crest of that contour firing towards the cemetery; presumably at Company E.
What do we think?
Zoom in on google earth may help see what I am getting at.
Cheers

On our field trip this year we walked out BRE with Donahue. Will Hutchison ( a Marine)  was along on this field trip.  The Indian position was directly across from the visitor center. Donahue stated the photograph of kneeling infantry was taken in the cemetery/visitor center area and was positioned by an Indian present at the battle with the line facing the Indian position on BRE.

There is a lower ridge between BRE and the new entrance road.

Google Pro shows this well. You can zoom in on the Indian Memorial and see the trail leading from it and out BRE. You have to go through the fence of the NPS boundary and on to Preservation land.

The Indian position is where the revolver case was found that was also where a matching revolver case was found on Calhoun.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[quincannon]

Ian: I think you have hit the mother load of maporama.

Be sure to save that one you posted early today for when we discuss the withdrawal from BRE to the known locations where C, I, and L were ultimately found.

Steve it seems that we are in the same ballpark with Donohue. Wish he was with us. Could really use his presence.

[azranger]

Nov 29, 2016 13:19:02 GMT yanmacca said:

I suppose if the soldiers yielded ground then the Indians would occupy it.

I brought up the topic of the ravine and its name a while ago and someone said it was Crazy Horse Ravine, but you can see that CHR is well east of BRE and the ravine mentioned virtually splits BRE and CR.

I would guess that either all or just two of Custer's companies moved down that ravine in an effort to reach the river as it looks just as good of a natural highway to ford D then MTC does to ford B.

I would say that both F and E at one time held cemetery ridge and the Indians drove a wedge between the two companies, otherwise we would see more E company men dead on LSH.

If we look at the total number of identified men out of E company, the total reaches ten, so I would guess that the total of 28 men found dead in a ravine comes from the total number of men in company E (38 all ranks), minus the ten named.

That is at least one explanation for a cavalry revolver case mixed with Indians case on BRE.

That CHR is not the same as the NPS map route for CH. The CHR (one of three) I refer to runs on both sides of the filled in section of the new entrance road. It would have been a natural corridor to and from the Ford D area and would come around the back side of LSH.

Whatever is on that map posted would run up toward Crow Agency.

I agree with Chuck that CH probably never used and of the three Crazy Horse Ravines. It appears to me that someone named Custer Creek which is next to the Trading Post and that particular CHR which leads to Crow Agency without suggesting that either Custer or CH were ever in them.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[yanmacca]

So where are we talking about Steve?

[quincannon]

I think there are two things we have conclusively proven in this extended examination of these events.

1) We will never be able to determine the exact internal movements and disposition of any or all the troops up in this northern sector. I think we will come close enough though for some sense to be made of it.

2) We have clearly shown that the action in the northern sector was more than a two company sized event, by the expanse of territory covered alone. What the conventionals would have you believe with the two company up theory is tactically impossible to either conceive or do in the allotted time frame.

Five companies there make all the difference. I am fully convinced we are on the right track. I have no lingering doubt whatsoever. The fact that it will probably never be accepted by those with previous vested interests do not concern me one bit. One thing I have learned in life, is that if any two people are thinking exactly alike, one of the two are not thinking.

[yanmacca]

I would like to add something to that, for me it is just common sense and taking into consideration just what type of man the commander was, add these two factors into landscape in which this engagement was fought over and we can see a natural progression.

Custer, a man who is fearless, waits for nothing and thinks on the hoof is leading the attack to get behind the Indians, he appears on the ridge lines about a mile away from the river and heads north with every carbine he has to carry out his plan to hit the opposite end to Reno.

Why stop and divide and more importantly leave over a hundred men on a ridge and scout, while the other half of his attack plan fights it out in the valley.