Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[Deleted]

I can't quite let go of this. Stealing maps from Fred's book, we see his idea of the route Custer took to/from Ford D and where Kellogg was found. I have highlighted the probably course of the river at the time in Blue. Note he has Custer skirting the river as he approaches the Ford and then cutting across the current river course in order to move toward LSH. That route makes no sense to me because if the Blue line AND Custer's route is right, he had to ford the River twice to move that way. If the river was in its current course, he could have come straight down the hill, ignoring both draws on his left and right, and likely successfully crossed the river.

Like amphibious assaults, you want to cross rivers where it presents a convex face toward you because it helps to limit the enemy's ability to engage you whereas if you approach a concave surface, you are walking into a fire trap.

Question: Do we know the flow of the river.

The location of the building we have become enamored with is near the place where I would attempt a ford. Its convex, somewhat concealed, and the whole area is FLAT meaning one can cross almost anywhere along the blue line. If river was in the current course, Custer is in the open the whole time he is skirting the meander.



When you answer, mark up this map or if you are hopelessly addicted to google maps (which does not show terrain well) correlate that picture with this map.  Don't quote a bunch mumbo-jumbo from accounts and reference a bunch of places that only you know.  Use the accounts to think about where they are and correlate them with the map.  Fred's route here fits the description about how the command came down a hill (but it also fits somewhat fits Ford B).  Unfortunantly, his route doesn't seem to fit what I (we?) thiink the river was course then.

If you've been there, use a grid coordinate and don't give corrections with references to markings on the map.  DRAW ON THE MAP.

The JSIT map, while revealing, does not show terrain the way the USGS map does.  And we do not know how 'fuzzy' the descriptions of the action have become when they were recorded and fit to that map over time.  Accounts change as they are passed down.  I'm not saying they were not recorded by JSIT accurately, I am saying that any written or spoken account diverges over time.  The Iliad and the Odessy does as well as the Bible.  The Bonfiace map as presented here is neither clear or available to me.

[azranger]

May 26, 2021 19:05:29 GMT yanmacca said:

Hi Steve, so his body was found on a probable route leading from BRE/Cemetery ridge to the flats near the fording point?

If this is the case then the Custer and his HQ was in that area.

I got the Kellogg location from the Bonefide map;

View Attachment

Ian

I think what happened for the Bonafede map is that they gave an approximation of where the Kellogg marker should be determined by the assumption of where Gibbons crossing is located. The other site that I believe correct starts with the marker alongside the old entrance road near the west branch of BRE and then looks for a fording place. Since the artifacts are along that old entrance road, I tip the scales toward that location along the old entrance road.

The current marker, I believe, is in the Keogh sector, at least according to Custer Apollo.

Regards 

Steve

[azranger]

Off to patrol for the weekend;

Regards

Steve

[quincannon]

Aren't there two Kellogg markers presently on the battlefield. The first was the original one located near the old entrance road, then moved to Cemetery Ravine, when that old road was closed and the area it was originally in then being used as the park maintenance area? The second marker is in the Keogh area, and was placed there by some association of newspapers to memorialize the war correspondent.

[Beth]

May 26, 2021 20:12:51 GMT quincannon said:

Two points Ian:

1) There is absolutely nothing that says Kellogg was with Custer, or Custer with Kellogg. That is an assumption, and in this instance, an assumption that has no substance in displayable fact. Kellogg could have been with anyone. Kellogg could have been with no one. Kellogg could have been sitting as a position of advantage, where he could see (and then report on) what was about to unfold. Not scolding you here, but this is a perfect example of "old think" by the "Know It All Brigade", the ones who insist that Tom Custer was an aide to his brother, Benteen dawdled, therefore to blame for everything, including the crucifixion of Christ, Custer's dog's only dined on Premium Milk Bone, and Dandy and Vic's shit did not stink, because they belonged to Custer.  So what then is the point? Custer and Kellogg may very well have been joined at the hip, for all we know, but there is probably a better than even chance they were not. In that light we must never leap to the conclusion that where Kellogg was Custer must have been too. That does nothing potentially but lead us down false trails.

2) Actually QC thinks that the Old Stage Road followed the trace of the now service road, that used to be the main north/south highway before Interstate 90 was built. It is only a few meters east of Interstate 90, which makes it closer to the old house foundation. Regardless only a few meters separate them, but the old service road seems more logical to me since the JSIT map was drawn before the Interstate was built.

Yes it is an assumption that Kellogg was with Custer but I have a couple of reasons to believe that he would have been moving with or close to Custer.  It is also an assumption that at the time of Kellogg's death he would have been as near as he could have been to Custer but there is some strong circumstantial evidence.

First, as a journalist Kellogg would have been as close to command as he could be.  He knew as evidenced by his reports that Custer was the story readers where interested in.  He could not report what Custer did if he was left behind.  Just read he last dispatch on June 21,  though I suspect he was not referring to himself or Custer with the last comment.  "We leave the Rosebud tomorrow, and by the time this reaches you, we will have ment and fought the red devils. with what results remain to be seen.  I go with Custer and will be at the death.   

Custer took Kellogg on the campaign despite orders from Sherman not to have embedded journalists. (perhaps a strong indication on Custer's part he did not plan to continue his army career after LBH).  At the time, Kellogg had been hired as the correspondent for the New York Herald which was one of the most popular papers of it's time, perhaps today's equivelent would be People Magazine or Hello.  The Herald had a history of following stories like the Centennial Campaign, they also funded Stanley's search for Livingston five years earlier so they had a feel for stories that were of interest to the public.

This story would have made Kellogg's career--the scoop of a lifetime.  It would have also given Custer the chance to rebuild his public image so both men would have profited by having Kellogg traveling with Custer.  Kellogg would have been unable to give first hand reports if he was anywhere else on that battlefield besides next to Custer.   It would be like having a reporter embedded with General Patton and not traveling as close to Patton as possible.  

Note: sorry if embedded is too modern of a term. 

[yanmacca]

May 27, 2021 10:55:07 GMT @mikerobel said:

Ian,

A known ford is not the only game in town. It is a place where you know the enemy is going to defend. Feint there and cross someplace else. Custer evaluated the situation, had an OH SHIT moment and determined he couldn't cross and attack the village, turned away, and probably lost control of the battalion. Perhaps had he massed on LSH, Calhoun Hill, or by where the cometary would be, he could have held off the Indians (or been contained by the Indians) until they decided to leave.

Edit:  I would not be surprised if the Indians were swarming/infiltrating across the river in as many places as they could find suitable for small groups and not concentrating at the ford.

Reno may have initially thought to go back the way he came, but was turned. He lucked out and discovered an unexpected place to ford (I bet the Indians thought they could pin him against the river) and cross the river followed by luckily occupying a good battle position where he was able to rally, however poorly, and luckily Benteen arrived ad they had enough force to hold the hill (or be contained long enough) until the Indians decided to leave.

Maybe Reno could have made use of the saber if they had brought them since he got involved in a hand to hand fight as he broke out.

Kellog was probably running for his life and was left behind, unable to keep up with whoever he was riding with. It amy well have been Custer. He probably should have ridden with Boyer and Curley and stayed on the ridge.

All I am saying here Mike, was for Custer to be effective, he has to get across the river otherwise he is a bystander.

He was hoping to get a clear run and that could be why he went so far north, knowing that a fight was taking place in the south.

I would guess that the level of defense took him by surprise and forced him back, if that ford would have been quite he would have made no bones on crossing and heading south.

[yanmacca]

You could make a claim for the whole HQ staying on a vantage point on BRE, Smith could have led the attack and got shot off his horse at the ford, I know that story has been doing the rounds for years, but like Kellogg, we don't have any evidence to disprove it.
The Indians do say that a man waring buckskins was shot at the ford and picked up and taken away, well Smith was not with his command so I suppose again that nothing is beyond discussion.

[mhoyt]

May 26, 2021 20:12:51 GMT quincannon said:

Two points Ian:

1) There is absolutely nothing that says Kellogg was with Custer, or Custer with Kellogg. That is an assumption, and in this instance, an assumption that has no substance in displayable fact. Kellogg could have been with anyone. Kellogg could have been with no one. Kellogg could have been sitting as a position of advantage, where he could see (and then report on) what was about to unfold. Not scolding you here, but this is a perfect example of "old think" by the "Know It All Brigade", the ones who insist that Tom Custer was an aide to his brother, Benteen dawdled, therefore to blame for everything, including the crucifixion of Christ, Custer's dog's only dined on Premium Milk Bone, and Dandy and Vic's shit did not stink, because they belonged to Custer.  So what then is the point? Custer and Kellogg may very well have been joined at the hip, for all we know, but there is probably a better than even chance they were not. In that light we must never leap to the conclusion that where Kellogg was Custer must have been too. That does nothing potentially but lead us down false trails.

2) Actually QC thinks that the Old Stage Road followed the trace of the now service road, that used to be the main north/south highway before Interstate 90 was built. It is only a few meters east of Interstate 90, which makes it closer to the old house foundation. Regardless only a few meters separate them, but the old service road seems more logical to me since the JSIT map was drawn before the Interstate was built.

Note that I personally don't blame Benteen for the crucifixion of Christ -- I will put that one on the Romans, now for some of the other stuff.......   

Kellogg being with the command group is probably a decent assumption.  For me, where he dies in relation to that is unprovable.  He could have been falling back from Ford D and his mule wanted to go to the water source (which they do), or he could have been trying to flee from LSH, or he could have lost control of his mule on some line, or been shot and didn't fall off the mule for a bit.  So I think the point I agree on here, is that the location of his body may not tell us much, because he wasn't tied specifically to an unit like some of the officers.  The lesson here -- don't ride a mule in a horse race.  This may make the Ford D scenario more likely than not, but I don't think it makes it a slam dunk.  For me it is odd that his body seems farthest from the line, as there should have been some soldiers between him and the Ford, as I doubt he was in the front of it.  VR Mark

[mhoyt]

May 27, 2021 19:33:23 GMT yanmacca said:

You could make a claim for the whole HQ staying on a vantage point on BRE, Smith could have led the attack and got shot off his horse at the ford, I know that story has been doing the rounds for years, but like Kellogg, we don't have any evidence to disprove it.
The Indians do say that a man waring buckskins was shot at the ford and picked up and taken away, well Smith was not with his command so I suppose again that nothing is beyond discussion.

Or if the person shot at Ford D is a certain LTC who led a lot of his Civil War charges from the front (11 horses shot from under him in the Civil War), then that may explain a lot.  I know that the Custer shot early theory is unpopular, but it would explain a lot.  VR Mark

[quincannon]

For the edification of all:

I am not in a position to say with any authority what Mark Kellogg was doing when he died, whom he was with, or anything else concerning the manner of his death, but that is not the point. THE POINT IS that no one else is either. We can all speculate. We may all have our own views. I certainly have mine. When those views are expressed as if they are fact, that is when we go off the rails. People read us, and depending upon how much they respect what we have to say, take what we say, and turn that speculation into their own set of facts, That is not the right thing to do. There are far too many who do that already and get away with it, because no one either dares, or has the common sense to call that person on it. When I tell someone to stand and deliver, as I have been known to do, what I am saying to them is show me your indisputable proof of what you are saying. If someone so called can not reach into their pocket and pull out the requested proof, then shame on them for offering speculation as fact, regardless of how good, and how logical the speculation may be. Proof pays for a Sky Box at the Superbowl. Speculation, labeled as such, gets you a ticket in the cheap seats. Speculation pawned off as proof, does not even get you in the stadium.

[Beth]

May 27, 2021 6:43:05 GMT quincannon said:

Well the body was found near Gibbon's Ford, and it certainly is a travel corridor, but I think those are the only things we really know for certain with the exception of riding a mule, and we don't really know that. What we do know regarding his mount is that he was last seen riding a mule.

As for writing about Custer, he was probably going to do that, possibly a lot of that, but he was also a reporter, whose primary job was to record and write about the campaign and the battle. So with that in mind, I would put money on him being where he could observe, and not get caught up in participation. That brings up where was it best to observe from, and I would think that anywhere along the west face of Cemetery Ridge would be just fine. He was found on that west face of the ridge, but that should not be taken to mean that he was observing (if in fact that was what he was doing) from the place he was found. One could argue that he was riding across the face of that ridge with the intention of heading up Cemetery Ravine to higher ground when he got whacked. In addition there is no earthly reason for Custer (himself) to be anywhere near where Kellogg was found. Commanders need to be where they can see, and exercise command. You can't see crap from where Gibbon discovered Kellogg

If the stupid son of a bitch had any sense he would not have been there in the first place, mounted on a mule or not

I agree that anyone with sense wouldn't do stupid things but I have found through life that even smart people do really stupid things, like drive off the sides of a mountain, walk off cliffs trying to get a picture, or into an alligator filled canal.  People get focused on a task and get tunnel vision.  I think that like quite a few people that surrounded Custer they bought into the hype which in hindsight was a really stupid thing but did people view it that way on that day?  The same hype led 3 of Custer's family members to their death--though perhaps Tom shouldn't count.

[yanmacca]

Well when you have a situation were all the white men on one side are slaughtered and the accounts given by the Indian side are mixed and so badly written, then any part of this portion of the fight is open to debate.
In fact the only account I really trust is JSIT, the rest are full of half truths, exaggerated claims pasted through bad interpretation.
Add poetic licence to the mix from authors and you have on hell of a story to sort out.

[deadwoodgultch]

Chuck, could you remind me again where Tweed's body was found, what company he was with, I do think I remember. How did he get there, I know it could very well be a one off. Fate and/or slow animals could have marooned them where they were foond. What do you think it may say about his company, if anything? Thanks.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

The account from his buddy in another company was ":up the ridge from where Kellogg was found". Seeing that Kellogg was found near the base of Cemetery Ridge, I am going to speculate that the ridge in question was what we now know as Cemetery Ridge. In truth though,  it could have been anywhere in the general area, as these folks that did the talking for the most part were not our best and brightest.  More importantly  though, they were not speaking for the preciseness of history, but rather out of emotion..

There could be a lot or reasons Tweed was found up there. A slow horse, or his company occupied the position, chief among them.

What does it say about his company? I don't know, other than there is, I think, a better than even chance his company was in the north.

[Deleted]

I imagine maps were scarce, things weren’t named, and no one really knew where they were as we would today with a map, compass, and GPS.

We cannot help but apply our modern minds/prejudices to the issues we are discussing.

Even with modern maps and technology not everyone could tell you where they were in the wilderness. They weren’t stupid or ignorant. They just lacked the tools.

Sometimes I think they didn’t even have maps. Much less accurate ones.