Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[quincannon]

OK, now that we have Ian's new map what can we initially say about the activities of the other three companies.

I am going to try and start it off, then leave it open for ideas and discussion.

BRE is a finger ridge, pointing generally down slope toward the trading post and beyond. From a tactical standpoint, BRE is an adjunct of Cemetery Ridge. We have discussed that, but to review one of the two cannot be held without the other.

This interconnectivity restricts what you can do as far as movement "once on" is concerned. For instance moving off BRE to the east means CR is flanked and will fall, game over. That leaves the only option of moving up the ridge in the direction of battle ridge itself and LSH. I believe that to be the only logical conclusion. The only thing remaining is the starting place of that up ridge movement, and I am very open for any opinion on this. My personal opinion is down near where the entrance road hits Highway 212, but it could be both closer and further away.


CVC: I neglected to address that Custer moves east thing with you earlier. I hand not yet had my coffee, and you know how that goes. I do not believe there was any Indian opposition to the east as Custer was returning from Ford D. If there was it was relatively small and would not inhibit him. If he was ever to move east, that would be the only time. He had to keep on going. He could not stop. He did stop, and in so doing prevented any eastward movement thereafter He did not yet realize the trouble he was in, thus the stop. It's like Frosty the Snowman. If Frosty stops the sun will elt him away.

[quincannon]

You are so right Ian.

Leaving those three companies behind is totally inconsistent with Custer's known character and examples of how he had previously performed.

Is it not the height of irony that those who admire Custer so much for his daring and audacity blindly accept that he would do something so utterly foolish, and think it was the correct thing to do. There was a name for this during the Korean War. It was called brain washing, and attempt to purge common sense and conviction from a person, and replace it with only that which someone else wants you to think. I don't have much of a brain, but I'll be damned if someone is going to send it to the laundry without a fight.

[yanmacca]

He was probably looking good as they continued north, all they had to worry about was Wolftooth and by the sounds of it his band had already fragmented into two smaller groups.

Something happened at the ford which convinced him to move back to the relative safety of the higher ground to the east, now Custer was a fighter and he had over two hundred men at his disposal, so whatever it was he saw at that ford was enough to put the wind up him good and proper.

[azranger]

Nov 29, 2016 22:37:50 GMT deadwoodgultch said:

Let me ask a dumb question here. As HQ, E & F approach the ford (D) Custer has C, I, & L have remain on BRE to keep Wolf Tooth at bay with C oriented to the southwest to keep any encroachment from the south and west contained. Now as warriors from the Reno sector and the village begin to converge, Keogh sends C to meet the first group from the south and L to stop he incursion from ford B while following up himself as support for both. This hangs HQ, E, & F to save their own bacon. Keogh has already seen Custer retreating from ford D and thinks he is opening an retreat avenue south.

Just a thought. I may have gone more in depth, but I hope you get the idea.

That would be another explanation for the revolver case on BRE and Calhoun.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[azranger]

Nov 30, 2016 15:24:43 GMT yanmacca said:

So where are we talking about Steve?

That's it Ian

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

Nov 30, 2016 2:41:23 GMT quincannon said:

This is a sidebar comment, not directly tied to the subject at hand, but dealing with the discussion of the scientific approach mentioned over the last twenty four hours.

When Mac posted that link to an earlier conversation the one with the pictures there was a comment by Wagner dealing with the Sharrow marker and a fourth escape attempt. I can see three possibilities here, the fourth eludes me, Foley, Sharrow, and Butler, Does it not seem odd that of the three mentioned all were noncommissioned officers, one a First Sergeant, and another the Regimental Sergeant Major.

It would not surprise me one bit for a private here and there to panic and run. Completely understandable. But, for at least two of these three known to do that goes against everything I know about NCO's

Now the science part. Admittedly two of the three known locations make them outliers, Butler and Foley. The location of Sharrow's body is completely consistent with the scenario we have been discussing today, and only becomes an outlier if you are in whole hog for the conventional theory to the exclusion of all else.

I take it as making excuses because they do not wish to accept any deviation to what they consider holy writ. I am glad we do not engage in this practice. Not even considering the damage a statement like that makes to the reputations of dead men, it seems to me that the people making them do not approach this in a scientific manner as described above. They were where they were for a reason, and we must attempt to find that reason, instead of taking some easy way out that may preserve the LBH social order but does nothing for finding truth for its own sake.

I have heard that there was a potential for Sharrow having been sent to Terry. There is rumblings about Cook's notebook being found on Sharrow's body.

Regards

AZ Ranger

 

[azranger]

Nov 30, 2016 11:31:09 GMT yanmacca said:

Mark, I don't think Crazy Horse managed to sweep around that far north, if he had around 200 mounted braves with him then this is almost as many men as Custer had, so their ability to cross the river would just as limited as the cavalry.

This would limit him to two fords, B and D, unless we go along the possibility that he cross near the Reno retreat crossing and then went over land to MTC and down to deep coulee.

If we say that he did cross at the norther ford (D), then this force of 200 would stand out like a sore thumb and would have a big impact on what Custer did next, as this would give him one hell of an headache as he would be facing rapidly growing bands of Indians on foot, plus the Wolftooth fifty and now Crazy Horse two hundred.

If you ask me then I would say that Crazy Horse crossed at ford B, as he would have known about this ford before hand and this would allow him quick access to the fight and not Rommel type sweeping left hooks.

But this is only my opinion and yours is as good as the next person.

You would be in good company. Donahue has CH in MTC.

Regards

Steve

[azranger]

One good reason for authors not being here or on any board is that they spend a lot of time researching and any new discovery or look at something is what helps to sell books.

So it is unfair to ask them, but I would like it if they did, to comment when they have knowledge through research that we don't have and they have not yet published.

For sure I knew some things before they were published and if asked to be silent I will be silent. In my job I have known at lot things that never resulted in making a case but have remained confidential.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[quincannon]

I have heard the same rumblings Steve, and I am not convinced about either send to Terry or notebook.

If they were up to their keester in Indians, it is doubtful to me that anyone would have the bright idea of sending anyone, anywhere on a wish and a promise of finding Terry who must have been twenty or more miles away at the time, and of little hope of extracting them from the slight little issue they presently found themselves in.

The note book is a non-factor. I doubt if it exists, but let's say it did, and lets say it could be conclusively proven at this date that it was on Sharrow's body, what does that prove. Zipidy Doo Da. Nada. Zilch.

1) It could very well have been standard practice for Sharrow to carry Cooke's notebook, as the RSM, who was involved with the adjutant in regimental administrative matters.

2) Who says that Cooke carried a notebook anyway? Has anyone ever seen it? What makes any notebook Cooke would carry distinctive from any other? All we have is a page that was obviously torn from a notebook, no notebook, no sourcing, no ownership. It could have been Sharrow's notebook. We have assumed it was from Cooke's. We don't know it was from his.

The only thing that could be said about this, is if the notebook did show up, and the torn page that now resides at West Point was determined to match the remnants of that page in the book itself, and we find that Cooke's name is on the notebook indicating ownership, then and only then could we say that the notebook in question was Cooke's, and the page on which was written the message to Benteen was conclusively proven to have come from it can we say that the note was from Cooke's notebook, BUT, BUT, BUT we still have no earthly idea why it may have been on Sharrow's body.

I know the conventional wisdom on this is that Cooke gave the notebook to Sharrow, as Sharrow was sent to find Terry, to somehow preserve the record. Man when the gators are nipping at your hind parts I would think there were more important things to be concerned with.

[yanmacca]

I suppose if you send your RSM and an orderly with instructions to Terry and Gibbon, then you would know that the game was up on this little number.
Terry would still be a couple of days away so it must have been a desperate act.

That's if this theory is true though of course, it may just be one of those imponderables, of which this battle is full of.

[quincannon]

It is far more likely Ian that Sharrow was whacked in the withdrawal to LSH from somewhere up on either Cemetery Ridge or Battle Ridge Extension.

Now if you believe as the conventionals do, that Custer was not up there, and no Custer means no Sharrow, then there must be some other explanation for where he became the dearly departed. Thus, an act of desperation, setting the record straight so reputations would be protected, wrapping the colors under his jock strap, going for popcorn and an Almond Joy at the local pop stand are creations of the romantic mind.

I detest romantic notions concerning the world's most unromantic subject - combat.

It is a complete waste of time to deal with this stuff. In the end this does not matter a whit in telling the tale of what happened. He could have been doing any number of things when he died, including showing others how to die. Of those only showing others how to die is important, the rest falls somewhere between nonessential and nonsense.

What matters is when someone smears a man with the allegation of running from his duty, when there is absolutely no basis for such an allegation. That itself is a despicable act. That's why I mentioned it. In the absence of any evidence, and there is none, Sharrow died like a soldier doing his duty.

So in the end it is an imponderable, and you are correct, so I am sure you will also agree with me that it is a waste of time to ponder the matter.

[mac]

If we look from a predictive point of view this theory would predict that there should likely be some bodies found on Cemetery Ridge (we have six likely Company E from memory) and on BRE where we find Sharrow and one other. It seems to me we can say that the most likely reason Sharrow is there is that he was killed there with another man as they were diligently doing there job addressing an enemy threat from BRE area. There may be an infinite number of alternatives but the presence of these men matches the theory and must be seen therefore to have greater probability than any other explanation.
We have said all along that we cannot produce certainty but we can produce a high probability scenario that best explains the existing evidence. So far we are doing this so lets go on.
So far we have the action QC proposes of the approach down the ravine towards Ford D. I will put him on the spot. How do you deploy from there to the attempt to cross the river QC?
Cheers

[quincannon]

Panzer Glock. Imagine a bell shaped formation heading straight for the river.

[mac]

Doubtless that will be familiar to Colt.
What happens when you get to the river? I am sure from previous discussions the width of the ford will be a factor so we must think in terms of the river as interpreted for 1876. How does one deploy 5 companies for a river crossing?
Cheers

[quincannon]

The ideal would be to find five wide crossable places at the total ford site and hit each crossing place in a company line.

You still use the Panzer Glock for your battalion's overall formation.

In practice the formation is a soft wedge, with the point making the initial shocking penetration and as the soft sides enter the area they tend to sweep away the debris from the shock action of the spear point.

Now as a practical matter Ford D was no ideal. I would still approach it in a Panzer Glock, which is the two companies up, with two companies supporting on the more danger side, and one on the less danger side I spoke of a day or so ago. Once at the ford though it would probably not be possible to cross on wide company front, so it would be up to each company commander as he reached his particular crossing place to adapt to what confronts him.

Now all this tap dancing of mine is a prelude to I don't know, because I cannot see that place on the afternoon of 25 June 76, and seeing, is more important than anything else. I can get you to the place, but after that I must see.