Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[mac]

OK I get the SSL stuff.
The initial interpretation of warriors following to Calhoun is based on the trip to Ford B story and the evidence archaeologically is very weak by his own admission, yet he is using it here as a fact.
This guy is no scientist!
Cheers

[mac]

A point of logic here
Fox says the Indians followed Custer away from Ford B and the story is there were hardly any of them. The people nearest to Ford B were the Cheyenne. Not many of them went to the Reno fight as it was the other end of the village. If Custer came down to Ford B and rang the doorbell, I am guessing more than a few would answer his call! There would be archaeology all over that area. 
Second point
Everybody relies on Sioux accounts for the Ford B excursion. Ask yourself how many Sioux were at the Cheyenne end of the camp while Reno was firing into the Sioux village?
Cheers

[quincannon]

Fox is no scientist - BINGO

I understand what you mean, some of these others may be surprised. You BEING a scientist are in an ideal position to explain.

[quincannon]

Regarding Company F:

It is quite likely that Company E and Company F were separated by some distance. We must dismiss, I think, the ACW and before notion of company sized units being cheek by jowl in some linear formation.

We must also assume that Company F was employing their long weapon, and in accordance with dragoon TTP that would be done dismounted, with the horses being held in the rear of their skirmishing formation.

The Company E horses are frequently mentioned as they were remarkable by color. The Company F horses were not. A darker colored horse on the battlefield looks just like a darker colored horse.

These are very basic factors. In the absence of evidence to the contrary I feel we must assume that these soldiers would act in a manner in accordance with training and prevailing doctrine. In fact there is absolutely nothing to lead one to believe they would do anything but.

Unless the initial position of Company F can be determined with 100 percent certitude, there is no ability to discern the details, where the horses were, how they fell back, were they split from another company, how were they surrounded and fixed, when, and by whom.

It serves no purpose to endlessly guess at these things, because at the end of any such exercise it is still a guess, and I don't think we want to be in the guessing business. We wish to be in the proving business

[quincannon]

The proving business:

You start with an hypothesis, based upon what you know, and in the absence of knowing, what you think you may know.

In this regard we can look at the terrain, and the tactics. High ground is a better place to hold than low ground. You then look at the avenues of approach. We have a clue in that regard, the location of the Kellogg marker. We can make an assumption if a given avenue is good as a route of withdrawal (what Kellogg was doing) it is also a good avenue of approach to the positions that were withdrawn to. That leads one to the holding of Cemetery Ridge, which is much too large to be held successfully by one company.

The avenue that Kellogg tried to use today is a modern trail that leads up to Cemetery Ridge. A close look reveals that skirmish lines oriented to address the trail would have a natural company boundary, the trail itself.

Now, presuming that these companies were split off from one another, one withdrawing one way, and the other in still another direction, you then look at where companies so split would go, presuming both were dismounted. Again presuming that Company E was in the left of the line, and the trail was the likely point of fissure in splitting the line the most likely direction for them to go would be off of Cemetery Hill to the southward, across Cemetery Ravine, ending up in the Deep Ravine area, essentially in the general location of the markers. Assuming Company F was to the right or right rear of Company E, the most likely direction of their withdrawal would be to where the visitors center is now, thence up the slope of Battle Ridge to LSH.

There is a problem proving all this however, and the problem is a Cemetery built at a time when no one gave a rat's behind about anything but getting the place constructed. There is no likelihood then that what has been speculated upon will ever be proven fact.

Let's look for a moment how the methodology of a Scott and a Fox would play out if we could do this.

First off it would be necessary to find these initial E and F positions. To do that you would have to discover cartridges consistent with known E and F weapons. These casings would have to be discovered in some quantity and in a general linear array. Using that location as a base point you would then have to search in a 180 degree arc from that location at a reasonable distance, say 500 meters to see if you could locate any similar arrays, and the direction of orientation, linked to the same two units. If you did, you start the process again, until you can't. The last such location discovered that fits the complete description, oriented in a generally westward direction then is the initial position. From there you start your search to where you know they ended up. Do not get distracted by outliers for in battle there are many such cases.

In my view there is no possibility of doing this described for either Company E or Company F. The material necessary to conclusively prove the hypothesis has been lost to history. To again use the puzzle analogy you have pulled the puzzle out of the box, and assembled the corners only to find your momma threw out the center portion when you were in third grade.

[mac]

Absolutely agree!
Just a geographic point .. What I call Cemetery Ravine is the prominent feature that runs from north of LSH and curves down through the current entry road.
There are accounts like the one recently posted above, that say the horses were led into the ravine. It seems to me likely that this could be the upper part of Cemetery Ravine where the curve would tend to conceal them. The implication is clearly that at least E were on Cemetery Ridge and were visible (by the same account) from down near where Deep Ravine enters the river. My take is they were the left flank of the position after withdrawal up Cemetery Ravine onto the ridge. This may well be the hill some accounts refer to as in "they went up the hill" rather than LSH which is frequently added to the quote. Usually bracketed! I hold an open mind on this as each quote needs to be analyzed on its merits.
The corollary is that Company F must be right of Company E and probably higher.
I add here we know a Company C weapon (pistol) was being used higher in the same ravine behind LSH which makes me add that Company C were possibly on the right of Company F and addressing the enemy on BRE.
That leaves Companies I and L probably further right. This makes sense as it is likely C,I,L all withdrew back up and along BRE. It also places them in the best position to break contact.
I think the accounts make this a good probability scenario. Sadly not proved but hey...like QC said.
Cheers

[quincannon]

I am using as Cemetery Ravine that marked on the Bonafides as such, the area between Cemetery Ridge and Deep Ravine. As you stand on top of LSH looking toward the river it is the vista to your front.

[mac]

Yes that is what I thought from your post. So many names eh!
What do we call the ravine running from behind LSH through the entrance road i.e.between Cemetery Ridge and BRE?

[Beth]

Shoot, I know I asked that very question of Fred that day he was here--he put up a picture that clearly showed it.  I haven't found the picture that caused me to ask (Will keep searching-it's harder when someone delete's their account)

Fred's reply to my question  greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/post/8245

If we are talking the same one it's Crazy Horse Ravine. Ian even put up a map

[Beth]

The link to Fred's post with the picture looking down the ravine towards the Trading Post
greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/post/8230/thread

[quincannon]

You can call it Constipated Buffalo Ravine for all I care. I do not think it associated with crazy horses or bloated buffalos, so why don't we just call it Entrance Road Ravine and be done with it, ERR for short.

What I will say though is that if I was commanding Company F, and my position was on the right or right rear of Company E, and my skirmish line was on the right of the old entrance trail that bisects Cemetery Ridge, and I had three more companies on my right on BRE or thereabouts I would be mighty tempted to stash my horse flesh down in that ERR. Not saying I would, but that would be the place I would look at first. Now if I did not have those three companies securing my right, I would not go near that place, rather keep my horses right close by.

There are at least three places that I have heard of called Crazy Horse Ravine. I don't believe Crazy Horse was in or had anything to do with any of them. Certainly no one would use the ravine marked Crazy Horse Ravine, as marked on the Bonafides to stash anything.

If any stashing of Company F horses was done, and stashing is speculation , not certainty, the most probable location is around the northwest corner of the visitors center, down a little off the back (east) side of Cemetery Ridge. 

[quincannon]

What we need to make this more understandable for everyone is a large blowup of the Cemetery Platt, preferably with appropriate contour lines.

It should clearly show the old entrance road from where the real Kellogg marker should be as noted on the Bonafides, and preferably show it in yellow as it proceeds from the real Kellogg body find up to the Cemetery in effect bisecting the ridge. You can see it only faintly on the Bonafides. It would also be helpful to mark the present entrance road in green as it proceeds through its own ravine, past the cemetery entrance and visitors center, and then follow that road up to the LSH monument.

That platt must exist somewhere. I suspect the scale would be something like 1 to 1200.

[mac]

Nov 28, 2016 0:17:38 GMT quincannon said:

Fox is no scientist - BINGO

I understand what you mean, some of these others may be surprised. You BEING a scientist are in an ideal position to explain.

Explanation
Briefly in the scientific method (following this is a prequisite for the work to be science) one proposes an hypothesis (theory) to explain an observed phenomenon and then investigates (usually by experiment) to find evidence to evaluate the theory. If new evidence contradicts the theory then the theory must be either rejected or altered to account for the new evidence.
Fox starts with the conventional theory then when his investigation (archaeology) contradicts the theory he seeks to invalidate the evidence without ever questioning the theory. Example Theory Ford B was where Custer tried to cross the river but was repulsed and followed. Evidence There is little evidence at Ford B to show any scale of conflict.
Finding this Fox does express some surprise, but then just keeps on with the theory! That is not how science works. The next step should be review and alter or reject the theory then test again. You repeat the process ad infinitum if necessary until you have an incontrovertible truth. In science that truth is called a Law. Law of gravity works every time. Jump up and see.
On this thread we are investigating an altered theory and so far it is matching the evidence better than the one Fox is defending.
Cheers

[mac]

Nov 29, 2016 1:20:04 GMT Beth said:

Shoot, I know I asked that very question of Fred that day he was here--he put up a picture that clearly showed it.  I haven't found the picture that caused me to ask (Will keep searching-it's harder when someone delete's their account)

Fred's reply to my question  greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/post/8245

If we are talking the same one it's Crazy Horse Ravine. Ian even put up a map

Thanks for posting this again Beth I was just thinking of it.
Note the warrior firing positions shown in red on Cemetery Ridge and on BRE. The position on BRE looks near the crest of the ridge and would appear perhaps to be men firing down the ridge towards the monument. Remember our Company C gun in the ravine?!
The really interesting one is the more linear arrangement on Cemetery Ridge. Note how it runs along a contour line. Now look at the last picture posted here
greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/post/8230/thread
Thanks again Beth.
The picture was taken down the ravine from around the entrance gate and I reckon the terrain on the left of the picture could be that contour line. If so it may represent warriors concealed behind and along the crest of that contour firing towards the cemetery; presumably at Company E.
What do we think?
Zoom in on google earth may help see what I am getting at.
Cheers

[quincannon]

Mac: I think what we are seeing here is a progressive Indian advance and concurrent cavalry withdrawal over the entirety of this terrain. By that I don't mean sweeping arcs of Indian envelopments, just old fashioned disputing of terrain possession, characterized by relatively short rushes as localize fire superiority is gained and lost. It was a push back process in my opinion, where pressure builds up to a breaking point, much lake water against the interior wall of an earthen dam. In the end some got away and the remainder were swept away.