Custer Moves to Ford D with Five Companies Part A

[mac]

Really disjointed Ian! 
No sense of narrative but just disconnected thoughts which do not seem to even be chronological.
However it does validate the ideas we have been looking at. Lots of companies involved together. Horses matching all the companies in action together.
Typical in concentrating on the individual's (White Bull in this case) battle honours because that was the most important thing to remember.
Cheers

[mac]

I have been reading some Fox on line. Found this.
Relates to Lt Philo Clark who in 1877 interviewed some warriors
"Informants evidently led Lieutenant Clark to believe, or he alone chanced on the erroneous conclusion, that the battalion (Custer's five companies) remained intact throughout (no wing seperation)."
So we have confirmation from a source other the John Stands in Timber (Wolf Tooth) that Custer did not divide his forces. No surprise!
Fox seems to be really "up himself" (hope that local expression translates for internationals) and with little reason to be!
Significantly later after considering warrior accounts he writes this
"Thus it is clear the left wing had deployed on Cemetery Ridge before the onset of disintegration in the Calhoun and Keogh sectors"
This is totally consistent with the previous quote and this theory.
He claims to be interpreting archaeology but he has aready decided what the final result will be. He makes contradictory assertions to make his solution work. Poor effort. Still I will read on. Might get better
Cheers

[mac]

So Fox says, the archaeology says, that there was no significant action between Cemetery Ridge and Deep Ravine and he attributes this to Company F being out there in reserve for Company E who are in Skirmish line on Cemetery.
I doubt this, but,throw it out there as addressing the orientation of such a skirmish line is important.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Yeah Mac it was a terrible account to read, but what we need is a master on the subject, someone who can make head or tails of such an account and make it easy for us mere mortals to understand;

Behold our savior!

link

[Beth]

Nov 25, 2016 0:56:26 GMT mac said:

Really disjointed Ian! 
No sense of narrative but just disconnected thoughts which do not seem to even be chronological.
However it does validate the ideas we have been looking at. Lots of companies involved together. Horses matching all the companies in action together.
Typical in concentrating on the individual's (White Bull in this case) battle honours because that was the most important thing to remember.
Cheers

I agree it is disconnected and not chronological but what happens if you take it to its essence?

The women and children were about 1/2 mile, and Custer stopped about straight across from the camp. There were four companies. Custer was in the 2nd from the north. The Indians see the women folk, and they stayed between the troops and the women.

(A large group of soldiers were ½ mile from the women and children. The warriors saw the Soldiers and placed themselves between the troops and the noncombatives.)

White Bull was on the east end and White Bull took a center run, but they did not hit him. The 2nd time, he said he was not going to turn back, he charged on the last company. When White Bull start, the rest of the Indians start, and the 2nd group of soldiers runs to the 3rd, and all the soldiers get on their horses, and when they were between the two companies, White Bull pulls a white off his horse.

(the Warriors attack various sections of the soldiers in, White Bull did first a center run then an end run. The multiple attacks force the soldiers form into two groups)

When the 1st reached the 2nd group they don't run straight. Some run toward the river and they were all killed. White Bull killed a man before he pulled the man off his horse. The 4th company went to the 3rd Company in the draw and they don't go any further. Between the 2nd and 3rd after he pulled the man off his horse, White Bull had two coups.

(the first group -scatter perhaps in panic (Run straight) some run towards the river and all were killed.

The second group (Called companies 3 and 4) was gathered (or trapped) in a draw The white horse company -Referred to as company 4-is part of this group. Company 3 is a mix of a number of colors of horse-bays, sorrels and whites

The 4th company had lost their horses. They had white horses, that was the grey horse troop. White Bull was chasing horses, and an Indian came in front of White Bull and cut him out. This 3rd company had bay and white horses at the time, but they soon lost them. Sorrels, bays, and whites were in the 3rd company from the 1st and 2nd. Before the 3rd company turned their horses loose they ran south and all except one was killed, but the horse was shot from under him. This might have been the man where the man fought from the hill. Butler must have been from the 2nd or 3rd company, but White Bull did not see him.

The 4th company has white horses which were lost, The 3rd company has a mix of horses-sorrel, bays and whites. The 3rd oompany turns their horses loose and all except one was killed (I am assuming it is the soldiers that were killed because the next line is that the horse was shot out from under the one not killed—and could possibly have been Butler but the story teller didn’t see it to know.

Down at Reno there were two soldiers got away and the Indians killed one and the other killed himself, according to 'Did Not Go Home,' who chased them.

(This perhaps relates to something that happened at the Reno end of the battle and refers to a similar story of two men being chased down after escaping)

The white men from the 1st & 2nd company were on horseback. They still had their horses when they got to the 4th company and then they run from the 3rd company and were all killed down the draw. The last one killed was close to the river. This made White Bull feel good, and he was picking up head feathers right along.

(a return to what happened to company 1 & 2—they were still mounted and were able to reach what White Bull calls the 4th company (White horses) and they tried to reach the 3rd company in the draw but were all killed with the last one dying by the river. Coup for White Bull)

The 1st company was charged by White Bull and his band. The 4th company start to run toward the hill. Most of them don't get to the top, and they lay down and start shooting, and White Bull was on the east side, and Crazy Horse wanted to charge. But Crazy Horse backed out, but White Bull went on the run. They were about the nearest horses when Crazy Horse was talking. They were on level ground. He was on the same horse as when Reno came.

(When the 1st company charged, the 4th company ran to the top of the hill but didn’t reach it, they started shooting from a prone (?) position. White Bull is now east of the soldiers on a flat place with Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse thought about charging but didn’t so White Horse charged.—This might be a bit tweek at CH -- showing that CH wasn’t as brave has his reputation—first he hasn’t had his horse shot out from under him and second)

When he rode through the space was about as close as cross this house. After he goes through, he joins the group of Indians on the other side, and the 3rd company started running down the hill, and White Bull ran over a soldier on horseback. The Indians got as close as from here to White Bull's house. The boys keep encouraging each other, saying, "Try!" After he ran over the soldier, White Bull's horse was shot down and White Bull was on foot. Then he saw Bear Lice coming, leading one of the soldier's horses. It was a bay, and Bear Lice gave White Bull this horse, and start again but the soldier was shot before White Bull got there, but White Bull struck him.

(White Bull rode through {possibly a gap in the soldiers} to join another group of Indians-the 3rd company started to run down the hill. White Bull had his horse shot out from under him (thumbed nose at CH?) But someone rounded up one of the soldier horses to give him

After he struck the soldier another was stand, protecting himself; so he jumped off the borrowed horse and started for him on foot. The soldier was shooting, and White Bull got close and the soldier threw his gun at him, and White Bull started to fight. White Bull had a gun in his right hand and whip in left hand, and the soldier was trying to knock the gun out of White Bull, but White Bull hit him in the neck; and the soldier had on a coat. White Bull was yelling, so Crow Boy and Bear Lice came over to hit the soldier, and they hit White Bull also. This was when the man was about to get White Bull's gun. It was the custom to call out when they struck a man.

(This is another description of White Bull’s bravery in battle and he collects some trophys)

After he shot this soldier, White Bull gets his pistol and belt and starts for the enemy; all that were left were in the draw, and White Bull and group got in front of the enemy. White Bull saw two soldiers coming, so they got down and waited for them to get closer, and shot one and at the same time a Cheyenne shot the other one. So they both went up and both got first coup on the one they shot and 2nd on the other. White Bull got soldier's gun and went up the hill and when he got up the hill he could not feel his leg; it had been hit, but the flesh was not broken, but was swelling, so he laid in a ditch and laid there until the battle was over and the Indians were going.

With horses brought, White Bull on his horse. There were about ten soldiers that chased White Bull up the hill. These were the last ones to live. The fight lasted about an hour.

(After the hand battle the only soldiers left are in the draw, WhIte Bull and a group of warriors get in front of the the last of the remaining soldiers. Two soldiers charge out of the draw and are killed. White Bull got one of these soldiers guns and went up (or was chased) up the hill. At this point White Bull is injured and sees no more of the battle.

However there had been 10 soldiers who chased White Bull up the hill and were the last to die.)

*****

Or condensed-the comments in gold at this point are my sidebars:

A large group of soldiers were ½ mile from the women and children. The warriors saw the Soldiers and placed themselves between the troops and the noncombatants.

The Warriors attack various sections of the soldiers.  White Bull did first a center run then an end run. The multiple attacks force the soldiers form into two groups

The first group -scatter-perhaps in panic (Run straight) some run towards the river and all of those were killed.

The second group was gathered in a draw.  

The 4th company has white horses which were lost, The 3rd company has a mix of horses-sorrel, bays and whites. The 3rd oompany turns their horses loose and all except one was killed.  (I am assuming it is the soldiers that were killed because the next line is that the horse was shot out from under the one not killed—and could possibly have been Butler but the story teller didn’t see it to know.)

Company 1 & 2—are still mounted and were able to reach what White Bull calls the 4th company (White horses) and they tried to reach the 3rd company in the draw but were all killed with the last one dying by the river. 

When the 1st company charged, the 4th company ran to the top of the hill but didn’t reach it, they started shooting from a prone (?) position. White Bull is now east of the soldiers on a flat place with Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse thought about charging but didn’t so White Horse charged.

White Bull rode through--possibly a gap in the soldiers--to join another group of Indians-the 3rd company started to run down the hill. White Bull had his horse shot out from under him.  But someone rounded up one of the soldier horses to give him.  White Bull has a hand battle at this time with a soldier.

After the hand battle the only soldiers left  alive are in the draw, White Bull and a group of warriors get in front of the the last of the remaining soldiers. Two soldiers charge out of the draw and are killed. White Bull got one of these soldiers guns and went up (or was chased) up the hill. At this point White Bull is injured and sees no more of the battle.

However there had been 10 soldiers who chased White Bull up the hill and they were the last to die.

(There is some confusion with all of the 3rd company dying when the horses are chased away or lost and then again running down the hill towards the river)

[Beth]

Nov 25, 2016 20:28:34 GMT yanmacca said:

Yeah Mac it was a terrible account to read, but what we need is a master on the subject, someone who can make head or tails of such an account and make it easy for us mere mortals to understand;

Behold our savior!

link

Dang I will never know how close my version is to the great one.  It's going to be embarrassing if they are the same.  

[quincannon]

The key elements

Half a mile

Warriors between soldiers and women folk - If the women folk and the warriors were both comingled in the camp there would be no need to have said it this way. That leads to that they were both somewhere else outside the camp, which is completely consistent with the flight northward and the protection thereof.

Four companies (groups - entities - units)

Across from the camp - Does that mean directly across from the camp? If not, rather, across the river from the camp. In other words somewhere on the other side of the river from the camp, meaning east side of the river.

Disjointed, in fact a complete mess, combining first person with the stories told by others I venture, but still some value.

[yanmacca]

White Bull was on the east end and White Bull took a center run

Hmmm…remember when I posted the line;

“North” to most Indians, is “East” to white observers”

Does this give us a different perspective on where White Bull fought?

[deadwoodgultch]

Ian,

A bit of trivia, the NA's always oriented the openings of their homes/tepees/hogans to the east. I am sure Steve has seen the hogans on the Rez., near him. Some traditionals still build them. I have even seen them in New Mexico and Arizona.

They knew the east, no matter what they called it.

[mac]

Beth
Really good job on deciphering that account.
I agree with QC as to some salient points. I would add in the bit Beth drew out of two groups that are split with one going to the hill and the other running towards the river and all killed. Sounds much like the scenarios for Companies E and f that we have discussed.
Cheers

[yanmacca]

Yes she nailed it.
What I was trying to find is any reference to F Company also being dismounted. I was thinking along the lines of the horses in cemetery ravine being that of F, while E Company kept theirs to hand.
But that would mean that the men found dead in that ravine would be F troopers and not E, which would upset a few folks who had them as E troopers.
I still feel that F was minus is horses when it fought on the western slope of battle ridge/LSH, otherwise I feel that more would have tried to escape east.

[Beth]

Nov 27, 2016 8:46:57 GMT mac said:

Beth
Really good job on deciphering that account.
I agree with QC as to some salient points. I would add in the bit Beth drew out of two groups that are split with one going to the hill and the other running towards the river and all killed. Sounds much like the scenarios for Companies E and f that we have discussed.
Cheers

Notice though he says some ran to the river, but there is no mention of running into a ravine.  The rest to me at least sounds like the fighting in the swale around Keogh but I am trying really hard not to put locations on the story because then we start to try to force the story into a scenario it might seem to fit but doesn't--to borrow QC's puzzle-a piece that has the right shape but will only fit if you hammer it in.)

[yanmacca]

The Indians do recall a run for the river by the soldiers, but as far as I can tell only one, but if E Company made a dash west, followed later by F Company men, that this would make two.

But think about it, without C-I-L Companies, Custer had around eighty men in HQ-E-F, and 42 of these were found dead on LSH, and between six to twelve along SSL, so really this would rule out any theory of E Company ever being on LSH.

Evidence of bodies from both of these companies gives a clear idea that both of these units died in a particular area and F mainly fell on West LSH, and E down in one  of the ravines.

[yanmacca]

Here is another piece by Richard fox, which covers Calhoun hill;

Attachments:

[mac]

He says reasoning is that the second skirmish line of L at Calhoun formed from difficulties in Calhoun Coulee and Ridge. Possibly, but could also be that the lower position of the line was not viable due to enemy action, that is a retreat of the initial line. I will try to read more as I do not get how he is tying in SSL.
Cheers