After Action Reports from 2016 LBH visits

[azranger]

Mar 8, 2023 14:30:41 GMT miker said:

Mar 8, 2023 13:57:34 GMT azranger said:

Veracity and Belief are fine.   Do you know this person?  Did he show you the diary?  Did he let you read it?  If not, why not?  What is his name or is he a member of some secret cabal that not only holds secrets to the Little Bighorn but also knows where the lost city of gold is.   If he is really interested in the battle why does he keep it to himself?   If he has it and doesn't share the knowledge, he is no historian or a student of the battle, but he is a person who feels entitled by a certain amount of wealth and revels in keeping something to himself that should be published.

I do know this person. I agree with everything you state. Until he releases me from my promise I am limited to comment. I have seen a picture of it. There are so many secrets that it is hard to keep up with them. It was almost released in Michael Donahue's book. The issue that potential authors have is that if they release information before they publish it becomes common knowledge. 

I don't think the diary holds any new information. The Benteen note was torn out of it. I have encouraged him to publish. The only author that never asked me to keep some things confidential was Gordon Harper. The others I know seem to want to reserve what they found until they publish. 

Regards

Steve

[miker]

Thanks Steve.

[azranger]

Mike

Chuck knows about these groups that follow Custer. They are not historians although some authors attend them. They are mostly Custer followers.
I understand why Chuck doesn't want to attend their meetings. Tom and I go to them and enjoy some of the people attending them. Its more of a social gathering with a few nuggets of information.

My veracity comments are from my own personal contacts and based upon 43 years in law enforcement with 25 years as a law enforcement supervisor. 

Regards

Steve

[miker]

Steve,

I understand you have met the guy and have formed a favorable opinion. I obviously don't move in those circles and am not likely to.

I find it odd that the diary, if that is what it really is, survived and was apparently not mentioned by anyone from the regiment. I would expect the thing to have answers to some questions like the task organization of the regiment after the divide. Other things, not so much. Cook's job is to maintain A record of what's going on. At some point that would become impossible.

I remain skeptical.

[quincannon]

I would like to know who authenticated this so called diary. I would also like to know the circumstances that surrounded its discovery. Presumably it was discovered on or about the 27th of June 1876, and one can assume it was discovered by a member of the Army. That is not a great leap of faith because a notebook would have absolutely no value to an Indian. Therefore, if I am correct, the diary would become part of regimental records, unless someone, thought of it as some sort of macabre souvenir of defeat.

In any case, I would expect it to have little historical value as it relates to the battle itself. There comes a point where even an adjutant puts down his pencil and reached for his revolver. In this I stand firmly with Mike, regarding both value, and as being a co-skeptic.

I do not go to these meetings that are held for the purpose of glorification of a man who led 210 good men to their death because of pure arrogance. I do not regularly attend conventions at cloistered convents and monasteries for similar reasons. I find that these conventions are attended, in large measure, by folks who don't do a lot of thinking, rather living in a bubble of self delusion. Was it not Patton who said that ----- If everyone is thinking the same, there are a lot of people not thinking. Group think is a detriment to the betterment of mankind. Nothing ever good comes from it.

I also wish to call your attention to the fact that if this diary does exist, and it is authentic, and even though it may have very limited value when it goes to further understanding, the possession of it, even with the to be published motivation, is an act of historical selfishness, and I do not wish to be associated with someone who is of such low character.

[herosrest]

Mar 8, 2023 14:02:10 GMT azranger said:

Mar 2, 2023 23:49:26 GMT herosrest said:

Excuse the ipso facto, I was skimming recent stuff.

Cooke's diary would be something else. His letter's home are in a private collection and date to 06/21.

On the battlefield, a note was found in Cook's hand and passed immediately to Nowlan. The content was never revealed as far as I know.

The diary may ne fog of war, or if real then a hugely valuable auction item. Stranger things have happened.

HR

Do you know the name of that collector?

Regards

Steve (BE)

AZ,

George and I have had various discussions on boards and I know him in this sense and having researched his art, papers on the battle, theory of events and his interests in battle relics and their valuation. A significant interest of his is Winer Cooke which he prefers spelt without the 'e'. We truly disagree about the lettering of the last note and where I see 'B' he gives ampersand. You know this stuff and know him. He visits  LBH and is I believe more than an aquintance of Donahue. Both artists Guarding the Guidon.

Macleod Gazette

I agree with him on some stuff, such as Frank Finkel being a fraud which is how I first arrived to hi
m. I offered some input in regards a sketch of the Crittenden grave marker and the problem of there being two J.J. Crittendens in the army at that time, and with both serving in those campaigns. That was an unusual twist of the history...... hang on........... Col. John Jordan Crittenden US Army.

link

As I gave, a note was found in Cooke's hand and passed immediately to Nolan. George is a long term advocate of Cooke. Article: "Revolver . . . Revolvers: Which Was Cooke's 'Real' Revolver?" by George Kush • Greasy Grass, Journal of the Custer Battlefield Historical & Museum Association, Vol. 31, May 2015.

You are aware that I have had a long interest in the pair of 1886, battle skirmish line images and oddly, recent discussions of the July 1877 artists sketch of Sheridan and Nowlan's camp on the Reno timber ground, which Benteen later anotated for RCoI. I went back into old work done figuring out where that artist lacoated to make the sketch. We discussed it way back when it was a live topic, you may remember. Well that provided an insight to the skirmish line stuff Barry did. I put this on hold back when Gerry was getting his Benteen paper together and didn't want to distract him from that and the messages sent to Terry on Far West, on 24th June 1876; which is far more important.

Nov 23, 2022 22:35:03 GMT Admin1 said:

A letter discussing the aftermath of the Reno Scout, from Lt. W. W. Cooke to his father dated June 21, 1876, from an unpublished letter in the George Kush Collection, with my annotations in brackets:

Feelings are running quite high here over Col. R[eno]'s recent conduct & his flagrant disobedience of his written orders. He has been severely censured & by Genl. Terry's orders has been relieved of all duties with this Expedition. R[eno] has personally appealed to Genl. Custer as a fellow soldier to intercede upon his behalf & allow him to accompany our Command, but if Mr. Keogh was allowed to have his way, "our gallant colonel" would be sent packing on the first boat down to [Fort] Lincoln. If truth be told, R[eno]'s imperious manner, [his] boastful & condescending temperament have caused even his staunchest apologists to reassess his fitness to serve in any capacity. My feelings aside, I believe his entreaties will prove successful as Genl. Custer's intention is that nothing should undermine the effectiveness of this Campaign.

Surely we discussed this matter, recently?

You know Donahue, and I guess have spent time with George. 

[serenace]

1201 days to go.

[herosrest]

Concerning the note, it was found by John Foley and given to Nowlan. link I'm sure Foley was mistaken, or addled in the sun or tippled up, or not even there but on detached duty or carrying a message which saved his life. Linked is what Hammer made of Camp's notes about it, and of course Camp had it all wrong and was fooled because the horse's shoes had been reversed to confound the enemy wolf scouts into thinking they were going when really coming. John Foley. Cooke note. Make of it what you  'Will', which apparently, is what it was.

[azranger]

Mar 12, 2023 11:53:37 GMT herosrest said:

Mar 8, 2023 14:02:10 GMT azranger said:

HR

Do you know the name of that collector?

Regards

Steve (BE)

AZ,

George and I have had various discussions on boards and I know him in this sense and having researched his art, papers on the battle, theory of events and his interests in battle relics and their valuation. A significant interest of his is Winer Cooke which he prefers spelt without the 'e'. We truly disagree about the lettering of the last note and where I see 'B' he gives ampersand. You know this stuff and know him. He visits  LBH and is I believe more than an aquintance of Donahue. Both artists Guarding the Guidon.

Macleod Gazette

I agree with him on some stuff, such as Frank Finkel being a fraud which is how I first arrived to hi
m. I offered some input in regards a sketch of the Crittenden grave marker and the problem of there being two J.J. Crittendens in the army at that time, and with both serving in those campaigns. That was an unusual twist of the history...... hang on........... Col. John Jordan Crittenden US Army.

link

As I gave, a note was found in Cooke's hand and passed immediately to Nolan. George is a long term advocate of Cooke. Article: "Revolver . . . Revolvers: Which Was Cooke's 'Real' Revolver?" by George Kush • Greasy Grass, Journal of the Custer Battlefield Historical & Museum Association, Vol. 31, May 2015.

You are aware that I have had a long interest in the pair of 1886, battle skirmish line images and oddly, recent discussions of the July 1877 artists sketch of Sheridan and Nowlan's camp on the Reno timber ground, which Benteen later anotated for RCoI. I went back into old work done figuring out where that artist lacoated to make the sketch. We discussed it way back when it was a live topic, you may remember. Well that provided an insight to the skirmish line stuff Barry did. I put this on hold back when Gerry was getting his Benteen paper together and didn't want to distract him from that and the messages sent to Terry on Far West, on 24th June 1876; which is far more important.

Nov 23, 2022 22:35:03 GMT Admin1 said:

A letter discussing the aftermath of the Reno Scout, from Lt. W. W. Cooke to his father dated June 21, 1876, from an unpublished letter in the George Kush Collection, with my annotations in brackets:

Feelings are running quite high here over Col. R[eno]'s recent conduct & his flagrant disobedience of his written orders. He has been severely censured & by Genl. Terry's orders has been relieved of all duties with this Expedition. R[eno] has personally appealed to Genl. Custer as a fellow soldier to intercede upon his behalf & allow him to accompany our Command, but if Mr. Keogh was allowed to have his way, "our gallant colonel" would be sent packing on the first boat down to [Fort] Lincoln. If truth be told, R[eno]'s imperious manner, [his] boastful & condescending temperament have caused even his staunchest apologists to reassess his fitness to serve in any capacity. My feelings aside, I believe his entreaties will prove successful as Genl. Custer's intention is that nothing should undermine the effectiveness of this Campaign.

Surely we discussed this matter, recently?

You know Donahue, and I guess have spent time with George. 



Yes

[azranger]

Mar 9, 2023 18:10:09 GMT quincannon said:

I would like to know who authenticated this so called diary. I would also like to know the circumstances that surrounded its discovery. Presumably it was discovered on or about the 27th of June 1876, and one can assume it was discovered by a member of the Army. That is not a great leap of faith because a notebook would have absolutely no value to an Indian. Therefore, if I am correct, the diary would become part of regimental records, unless someone, thought of it as some sort of macabre souvenir of defeat.

In any case, I would expect it to have little historical value as it relates to the battle itself. There comes a point where even an adjutant puts down his pencil and reached for his revolver. In this I stand firmly with Mike, regarding both value, and as being a co-skeptic.

I do not go to these meetings that are held for the purpose of glorification of a man who led 210 good men to their death because of pure arrogance. I do not regularly attend conventions at cloistered convents and monasteries for similar reasons. I find that these conventions are attended, in large measure, by folks who don't do a lot of thinking, rather living in a bubble of self delusion. Was it not Patton who said that ----- If everyone is thinking the same, there are a lot of people not thinking. Group think is a detriment to the betterment of mankind. Nothing ever good comes from it.

I also wish to call your attention to the fact that if this diary does exist, and it is authentic, and even though it may have very limited value when it goes to further understanding, the possession of it, even with the to be published motivation, is an act of historical selfishness, and I do not wish to be associated with someone who is of such low character.

Chuck

I agree in principle with what you state. There are lots of private collectors that never share what they have purchased. Here is a question for you and Mike. In my job I always carried a note pad in my shirt pocket. The question is did Cavalry officers carry a not pad on tier person? 

Maybe the use of the word diary is a misnomer and it is really a note pad.  

Regards

Steve

[miker]

I can't speak to what Cavalry Officers did then.  I carried Index Cards bound with a butterfly clip or a small memo pad in my pocket and I had a notebook I designed that had acetate pages which I could write on in the rain to take down orders, write my orders, spot reports and such.  I also wrote on my map case.  I still carry a notebook or index cards as well as a calandar.  I do not use my Iphone for such things though.  And I do not archive my notes anymore and I got rid of all the ones I did over time.  When I go to a battlefield though, I intend and try to use my GPS to record the coordinate, note the photo number, and azimuth I am shooting along.  I usually fail though.

When I worked at battalion, brigade, and division command posts we of course kept a journal recording significant actions and orders issued.  These became part of the historical record and were used to write after action reports and then at the end of the year, they were supposed to be sent to archives along with a yearly historical summary.  During Desert Storm I wrote three of the four daily summeries we sent to corps and down to brigades (as I recall, but maybe we didn't send them to brigades) and at the end of the campaign I wrote an unofficial history which was later used by one of my fellow officers when he wrote books on the 1 ID, the VII Corps, and 1-4 Cavalry when he became a historian.

In cavalry troops, they have a command post carrier which allowed them to do the same thing.  I am not sure how it all works now.

Also, as I am sure everyone here knows, the 7th CAV had an official diarist who (and whose name I forget and am too lazy to look up) kept track of how far they marched using an odometer and was supposed to record times and such.  From the time they left the divide, though, I think he did other things.  Obviously some 7th Cavalry records were preserved by after action reports and other official communication.

[quincannon]

From the time I became a fire team leader, and all the way to battalion command, I started customizing my TA50 and its contents. I purchased all my own stuff from various sources, mainly the Quartermaster Sales Store, but from commercial sources as well. My TA50 over time became a custom rig of my own design that would fit my particular needs and in some cases whims. Long intro to tell you that yes I carried a notebook, a wooden pencil, no pens of any kind, a small foldable Buck knife so sharp you could shave with it, and black, red, and blue colored grease pencils.  Later I bought better finer pointed liquid items at an office supply store in the same colors.

As a young fellow, probably nineteen or so, I read John Masters' "Road Past Mandalay" In that book Masters lays out what his kit contained in detail, the stuff he carried on the Second Chindit Expedition into Burma in 1944. I modeled a lot of what I carried and how I carried it on what Masters did.

I understand Steve that you really would love to fully believe that Cooke's notebook has been found. I would too, but I am enough of a realist to think that eventuality is highly problematic due to the passage of time and circumstances of the battle. Ronald Reagan, whose signed photo has hung over my desk for nearly 40 years, and still does said "Trust but verify". Good advice in all circumstances for everyone of us.

NOTE: TA50 for those readers who may not know the meaning. TA stands for Table of Allowances. In this particular case TA50 specifies what items each soldier is authorized to be issued as individual load equipment (LBE) carrying package. It includes such items as a pack, or rucksack, ammo pouches,  canteen, entrenching tool pistol belt pack suspenders and so forth. 

[deadwoodgultch]

Steve you alluded to your time in enforcement, as you know after the investigation the decedents belongings are returned to the family. In this case the military returns the soldiers belongings to the family. This family was in Canada, the person who currently has the item acquired it from the family and he currently resides in Canada as well. To my knowledge the contents have not been widely shared or shown.

What would surprise me is that the item was not found by the NA's and the paper was not used to make dolls by the children, as the paper money was. I do find it hard to believe it contains battle info.

Regards
Tom

[quincannon]

Your first statement Tom is not completely accurate. If that document, diary, notebook was a record of proceedings of the regiment, it is not personal property but rather regimental property, and belongs to the United States Government. You must recall that Cooke was not just any ordinary soldier or even ordinary officer. He was the regimental adjutant. Practically anything the man officially touches while in that role becomes a regimental record, and as such is not personal property. Regardless of if the document in question was a government or private purchase the document was used in the conduct of official business, and as such becomes the property of the government during its use or when the item is retired, or recovered. As a regimental record it is not in the same category as an officers or NCO's notebook. Fine distinction I know, but them be the rules.

So in your statement above you suggest that Cooke's personal property was forwarded to, I suppose, relatives in Canada. That probably did happen I would think, which would suggest that the document was recovered by someone in the Army and turned in. Totally normal procedure. But as proof of what I am saying, who is that owns the note taken from the notebook? It is owned by the United States Government, and has been so owned since the day it was written and received.

Let me ask a more direct question of you. You say whatever it is has not been widely shared or shown. My question is when and where has it ever been shared or shown? Is this rumor worth you going down a rabbit hole?

[deadwoodgultch]

I heard about it at the LBHA conference in ND in 2021 and afterwards in Hardin in a local establishment. Also, from Steve. All second hand.The guy does have an interesting collection, as I understand it, he is a well thought of by all of the LBH groups. So no I will not join Alice in the rabbit hole.

I don't know what is contained, I seriously doubt battle narrative, maybe a last note to loved ones. Rumors can create interest.

Regards,
Tom