|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 16:20:32 GMT
Arizona Ranger asked me to forward this conversation to the group from a PM
On the field trip with the Friends of the Little Bighorn this year it was revealed there are matches with cases found on Calhoun Hill and the battle ground ridge extension. That is huge I believe an offers two choices. Calhoun soldiers were there before moving to Calhoun Hill or Indians used weapons taken from soldiers on Calhoun Hill and were firing at Custer from the battle ridge extension. The extension runs from the Indians memorial toward the current trading post. It is across the road from the cemetery.
Also identified as to location was the picture of kneeling infantry firing. They were placed there during an anniversary event by one of the Indians. The site is on the cemetery and the weapons are pointing in the direction of the battle ridge extension.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 16:22:41 GMT
Follow up comment from Ian
The cartridge cases are a break through Steve and could shed light on the JSIT theory, it could however mean that these weapons may have been captured from Calhoun’s men, which would indicate that his position fell long before the collapse of Custer’s men.
Would the battle ridge extensions extend to the high ground overlooking the position of the northern ford?
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 16:23:50 GMT
Ian
The battle ridge extension moves from LSH in a north east direction. At the location we stood out where the cartridges were discovered it was around 800 yards to the visitor center.
Part of the issue on discovery is that Michael Donahue who works for the National Park Service has to do all his work while not on duty or else the information belongs to the Park Service. The other part is that he writing a book and only reveals parts of the puzzle.
You are along side Crazy Horse draw (which should not be called that) and can clearly see the filled in area of the entrance road.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jul 6, 2016 16:25:22 GMT
Thank you Beth, I clearly need some moderating lesson.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 16:27:47 GMT
Thank you Beth, I clearly need some moderating lesson. It's just cut and paste. There isn't really any other way to move a private message to the main board.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 16:29:06 GMT
I like Donahue's work Steve, because he works on site would give him a great insight to the field in general.
The cartridge finds would obviously suggest that carbine firing took place here, I suppose Donahue never mentioned if the cartridges were scattered or in line, which could have determined if they were fired by either soldier or warrior, but if they correspond to similar finds on Calhoun hill then this opens up a real can of worms.
If they were fired by warriors then this would suggest that they were shooting in the direction of the cemetery, but 800 yards is a bit far and I would expect the warriors would avoid shooting at that range.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 16:29:35 GMT
Ian
There are a number of Indian locations where they were firing at long range. One is located on a hill next to highway 212. I think with a clump of soldiers to shoot and the ability to see dust for bullet impacts you could walk fire into the location.
Steve
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 16:30:28 GMT
Steve there is a picture on the Montana Mayhem site which was took from Custer marker facing towards the cemetery and you can clearly see the grave stones, and I was surprised at just how near the two locations are to one and other, so I think that if Custer had to pull out of the cemetery area then he did it in earnest and when he reached LSH he found that he was virtually hemmed in on all sides.
Ian
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 16:32:06 GMT
Ian
I agree. I am sure that Custer recognized to late the Indians were swarming his location from all directions. That those Indians were not going after Reno. I believe Crazy Horse did not used Crazy Horse draw even if it is today has his name one it. My current opinion of where Crazy Horse was located and his movement to the Custer battlefield is that he moved up MTC then the climbed the hills to get into the battle.
I believe it was Indians that were not involved with the valley fight that put pressure on Custer. Wolf Tooth and others were not on a hunting party unless we define Custer as the hunted. He left the village after being told not to go and they knew of the approaching cavalry.
This means that what some considered cover and concealment by Custer would be visible from across MTC in most locations. The cover and concealment only works if you believe that the Indians would not cross the river.
Apparently they knew Custer was coming and some went to find him before he got near the village.
Great stuff and it makes these trips addictive.
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jul 6, 2016 16:40:47 GMT
Yes how stupid of me, I thought you took the avatar to, but when I put my glasses on I saw Snoopy and not the Widnes coat of arms.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jul 6, 2016 21:04:54 GMT
And now Snoopy has retired until the next 4th. Don't feel bad, I spent hours to if there was another way to do it but couldn't find one.
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jul 6, 2016 21:14:25 GMT
I tried this morning Beth, but I think PMs are sacred, which I suppose is right.
|
|
azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
|
Post by azranger on Jul 7, 2016 12:59:02 GMT
While on the field trip with Donahue I talked with man that worked with Weibert on the battlefield. One of the locations was a hill close to Highway 212. They found cases indicating a Indian location.
At one or another we have all seen the kneeling infantry firing their rifles picture. I knew it was taken during an anniversary event. What I learned was that the location was determined by an Indian participant and the direction of fire was toward the battle ridge extension . That would fit with troopers close to the visitor center firing at Indians on the battle ride extension.
Another thing brought up was that Cooke's diary was found and that the Sgt Major had it on his body. There seems to be some secrecy about this find. So take it for a rumor but it is a interesting rumor.
The theory was that the Sgt Major and one trooper were given a message to Terry and took off in that direction. That would explain the two markers that were originally located near Putt's trading post.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by yanmacca on Jul 7, 2016 14:26:12 GMT
Steve, I know the photo you are referring to, so would the skirmish line in that picture be located about here? (red line);
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 15:28:06 GMT
Those Company L area carbine cartridge finds add new mystery to an already mysterious event.
I thought of another possible reason for them, but I don't know how well it would fly with you all, but let's take it out for a spin. It could very well be that what is assumed to be a carbine in the hands of a Company L soldier was not in his hands at all, rather a weapon captured or obtained by an Indian/Indians prior to the battle and used by them in both places which may stretch some credibility as the two places are fairly far apart, but at the same time not out of the question.
That is only a good theory if there were not many, or if the cartridge finds themselves were not found in some orderly array, like a skirmish line.
If that theory is invalidated, THEN we must make the assumption that Company L was indeed up where Steve and others put them, and that does speak to JSIT, and post-middle of action battle flow, reversing itself from south to north, to a flow upon decisive contact generally north to south.
|
|