azranger
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Ranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 13, 2016 17:18:14 GMT
Is that the lower letter M? There are two letters what look like rather posh versions of that letter, the top one reads; Ravine ? ? containing 30 bodies which men not found or? buried? The one below is too sketchie to make out a proper sentence. I can see the trail though. The top is the description for the bottom "M" in my opinion. The bottom drawing is composed of small triangles in a line. The key has "^" (close as I can get to a triangle labeled as dead ----. It seems to represent dead troopers on LSH so does it also at "M"?
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 13, 2016 18:53:31 GMT
Steve, I will check the book drawing battle lines.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 14, 2016 12:34:59 GMT
Steve Donahue doesn't mention about the line of dead found along the extensions, but they are clearly there, but he said in one statement that they buried 303 bodies on the Custer field alone, but changed that total to 203 later, anyway here is a page from the book if anyone one wants to use it for a reference along with your map;
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 14, 2016 12:57:42 GMT
Here is a little teaser for you all, now Captain Smith was found dead on LSH and his company was destroyed in or around deep rave, but Captain Moylan said that he found Smith's horse dead at the head of deep ravine. Hmmm....any idea's?
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 14, 2016 14:02:04 GMT
Ian
I talked with Donahue on the Battle Ridge Extension and he said he was going to look at that line of triangles. He was the one that pointed out to me the line from LSH area toward the cemetery area.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 14, 2016 14:06:07 GMT
I wonder how far that line triangles was in relation to the Kellogg marker?
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Post by Beth on Jul 16, 2016 0:28:23 GMT
Thanks for putting up the book page. I could not translate what Benteen had written.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 21, 2016 13:22:13 GMT
I purchased Weiberts The 1974 Invasion of Montana on our last visit. It is not cheap. He put together the composition of the participants (which included Herendeen and Muggins), the weapons including two cannons, the number of wagons, 40,000 rounds of ammunition, and the route.
When Don Weibert was a young boy he lived at what is now the 7th Ranch and he describes going out to play in the rifle pits from the house. I thought the divide would be to far. It is. He described the pits as being located on the South Fork of Reno Creek. When working on the route he identified numerous locations with the rifle pits.
The interesting thing besides the locations is the ability of the individuals as shooters. So when Rini states hit do not matter he needs to read how these 153 men took care of business. At one location the Indians were under command of an individual Indian who gave lots of verbal commands. Then bells were sounded and the Indians would open fire.
As the daylight began the ability to make aimed shots was more likely. At the sound of the bell the Indians would jump up and fire a volley. These men when they could see opened fired and grounded the Indians. Some permanently. The Indians were behind a ridge. They attempted to shoot by raising the weapons by arm only over the ridge and firing in the general direction of the livestock. The marksmen made that arm that was visible non functional.
Hits matter
Then they went to work with the cannons adjusting the fuse to time the explosion over the Indians behind the ridge. Finally they charged those Indians and sent the survivors back to where they came from with a lot less then they started with.
Since Herendeen was on the adventure he knew full well the potential for battle in SFRC. He fought there himself.
Next year will be a look at these sites running from SFRC to Lodge Grass.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 21, 2016 13:23:47 GMT
I wonder how far that line triangles was in relation to the Kellogg marker? The Kellog marker would not be far from that line.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 21, 2016 14:06:23 GMT
Keogh can surly blow it out of his ass, hits do count and the Indians were not prepared to take mass casualties like the Zulus did at Isandlwanna, the British killed over a thousand Zulu imps, but they just kept coming with only a wooden shield for protection.
If Custer could have inflicted over a 1000 casualties on his enemy, then the battle was won.
The Indians would have kept their distance especially if they were being dropped in large numbers, and would have been forced to creep along gullies and ravines and take long ranged pot shots, this would also have neutralised their most numerous weapon, the bow and arrow, because these would have been kept to its maximum range at best.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 21, 2016 14:30:18 GMT
When I was trying to track down the artillery available to Custer, I came across an account given by either Herendeen or Gerard and he said that he told Custer to take a long a howitzer rather than a Gatling gun, he said that the Indians would not stay still long enough for this weapon to be of use, but the howitzer would give them a shock at 1000 yards.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2016 16:37:09 GMT
Follow up comment from Ian The cartridge cases are a break through Steve and could shed light on the JSIT theory, it could however mean that these weapons may have been captured from Calhoun’s men, which would indicate that his position fell long before the collapse of Custer’s men. Would the battle ridge extensions extend to the high ground overlooking the position of the northern ford? I think that Donahue revealed just enough to set the hook but not enough detail so that some other author could use his findings. He stated that case(s) matched at BRE location with Calhoun location without giving any more detail. Two years before the tour was at the entrance and suppose to go to Ford D. The rain made conditions such that the NPS cancelled that part.
Dough Scott and Mike Donahue were the presenters. Donahue showed us a picture of the Kellogg marker along side the old entrance road. The event was the grand opening of the new entrance and the picture was of a high school march banding if I recall correctly. The picture was photo bombed by the Kellogg marker in the background. Donahue believed that it was taken from atop of a school bus because of the angle.
Scott presented the removal area of material from the Ford D area to be used to fill in the gap for the new entrance. Artifacts were not searched for before the material removal.
Donahue mentioned Gordon Harper's book and Gordie's theory of movement which is north to south.
Donahue told me he believed that Crazy Horse came up MTC from the bluffs. At least that was his theory on that day if I recall correctly.
I think we could have more than 1 Crazy Horse involved.
As far as the markers I believe two at one time represented Sharrow and another trooper. There is an unverified story going around that Cooke's notebook was found on Sharrow's body and that Sharrow may have been sent to Terry.
Always nice to throw in the latest rumors.
In another set of events my friend from the 7th ranch believes we could find artifacts at the defile we rode across and ask me to talk with Scott at the metal detector class. I did and there is a potential. We also have the rancher on board.
Could be fun
Regards
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 3, 2016 16:43:22 GMT
Steve Donahue doesn't mention about the line of dead found along the extensions, but they are clearly there, but he said in one statement that they buried 303 bodies on the Custer field alone, but changed that total to 203 later, anyway here is a page from the book if anyone one wants to use it for a reference along with your map; I missed this one. Donahue pointed out a line across the cemetery area on Benteen's map and thought indicated travel to or from Ford D.
I agree and when I talked with Donahue this on BRE I told him to look at the Benteen map and those triangles. He said he would and had not paid attention to what they represented.
Regards
Steve
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Post by yanmacca on Oct 3, 2016 19:38:15 GMT
Donahue maybe playing cagey Steve, he is in a great position to study the field and compare any old maps to the area in question. Now that's a luxury we can never compete with.
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Oct 4, 2016 11:59:17 GMT
Donahue maybe playing cagey Steve, he is in a great position to study the field and compare any old maps to the area in question. Now that's a luxury we can never compete with. I think he has to walk a line also. All his work has to be done on his own time or else it belongs to the NPS. He certainly is in the right place to for his free time. A lot of the artifacts are here in Tucson, Arizona.
I am not sure it is being cagey rather than something that author's do. How long did Fred know about his discovery of the filing in of the gap. The information is available to everyone so it only takes digging it out.
What is saddening is persons going out and recovering artifacts and not recording them in a useful manner. Seems to me that we should be cognizant of what data needs to be collected to make an artifact have value other than monetary value.
Even Jason Pitsch who had lots of his own personal problems was wise enough to involve Douglas Scott regarding his findings on his own property.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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