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Post by yanmacca on Jul 7, 2016 15:33:23 GMT
Do you mean left to cover Custer back from Cemetery ridge, then falling back to Calhoun hill?
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 7, 2016 16:09:07 GMT
Chuck, There were a number of carbines captured at the Rosebud, I think I brought this up in the past, Wooden Leg had one.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jul 7, 2016 18:25:25 GMT
No Ian, under those circumstances if anyone was covering anyone it was E and F covering C, I, and L.
Tom that is exactly why the cartridge(s) is only a quarter of the tale, the place another quarter, the other half being the exact location of the find in relation to the other similar finds in the area.
If for instance there were a great number of cartridges identified as being from both the cemetery and Calhoun Hill, and they were all discovered in some orderly, identifiable arrangement, then evidence would e pretty conclusive that L was in both places. One or two may very well be outliers whose meaning cannot at this date be determined.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 8, 2016 10:50:30 GMT
You hear tales from the Indians that the charge by Crazy Horse split the soldiers in two, now we know that this was a large battlespace and even the Indians themselves say that no man could be involved in it all, or even see it all, if the Indians say the charge split them in two them why wouldn’t it mean drove a wedge between Custer and Keogh while they were in the process of getting back from ford D.
So if all five took off north and were forced back then what is there to say that these companies were split in two by the CH attack, when I mean two, I mean L, I & C from E & F. This could be a fighting withdrawal with some units in skirmish and some even pausing to fire from horse back and if split into two and each group being surround, then we have the classic two last stand principle.
Now I don’t know just how many cases were found, but L Company was the largest unit, so if Calhoun ordered them to fire a volley from horse back then we would have over 40 cases dropped right there on cemetery hill.
Cemetery hill would be the logical place to halt or regroup and once they proceeded south due to pressure, then Calhoun hill would be the next, especially is there route is blocked with the Indians controlling deep coulee, it would also explain why C went the way they did and how Keogh could be fighting to keep the Indians off Calhoun’s rear.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2016 11:02:55 GMT
I just love it when conventional wisdom is thrown out the window, as has been done here primarily by Steve and Ian.
That is a good thing, for blind acceptance, never moved and ball forward toward the goal line, and only serves to stick it at one spot on the field for three downs and a lose interest.
Marry up this alternative narrative with JSIT, and to me it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Alice in Wonderland pap we have been fed all these long and many years.
Question for Steve and/or Tom? To your knowledge has there been any artifact evidence found in the relatively flat ground west of battle ridge extension, and north of the highway/railroad bridges, and between that place and Crow Agency?
This whole notion of engagement down to the trading post, and the markers that were once there, has given me some further thoughts I want to explore when they have had a chance to mature in my mind.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 8, 2016 11:59:47 GMT
Well I was using the principle that we talked about the other week, when Custer travelled in two columns over the bluffs, I said that this was mainly for speed on the march.
So if the same formation proceeded on north then would it still travel in two groups?
I don’t think that all five would stay in one long column, and the two battalions could have converged on the ford parallel to each other.
Once in full view then a lead group would be sent forward and if this was the Yates battalion then the other three would be located just behind, thus any fall back would make either C, L or I the lead unit, my guess is that it was C Company which led because it went the furthest before being deflected, L and I then took refuge on the higher ground.
Yates and Custer too sought for higher ground in an attempt to re-unite but were separated by CH.
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azranger
Brigadier General
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Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 8, 2016 19:23:38 GMT
Steve, I know the photo you are referring to, so would the skirmish line in that picture be located about here? (red line); If that red line is close to the current road in front of the visitor center than yes
Steve
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azranger
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Post by azranger on Jul 8, 2016 19:29:04 GMT
Anything is possible and the findings are consistent with many theories. I guess we have to see the actual location of where they were found on Calhoun. The battle ridge extension was used by Indians since other Indian cases were found there.
When would soldiers be firing from the cemetery toward the battle ridge extension?
Regards
Steve
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azranger
Brigadier General
Ranger
Posts: 1,824
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Post by azranger on Jul 8, 2016 19:47:56 GMT
I just love it when conventional wisdom is thrown out the window, as has been done here primarily by Steve and Ian.
That is a good thing, for blind acceptance, never moved and ball forward toward the goal line, and only serves to stick it at one spot on the field for three downs and a lose interest.
Marry up this alternative narrative with JSIT, and to me it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Alice in Wonderland pap we have been fed all these long and many years.
Question for Steve and/or Tom? To your knowledge has there been any artifact evidence found in the relatively flat ground west of battle ridge extension, and north of the highway/railroad bridges, and between that place and Crow Agency?
This whole notion of engagement down to the trading post, and the markers that were once there, has given me some further thoughts I want to explore when they have had a chance to mature in my mind.
The first problem is that below the cemetery area or actually below the current NPS housing had material removed to make fill for the current entrance road.
The Kellogg marker was located on the old entrance road which would be down below the cemetery area to the north.
The Sgt Major marker and unidentified trooper marker were down near the trading post. There is good rumor that Cooke's notebook was found on Sharrow's body. It may be in someone's possession today. It's suspected a note to Terry was in the notebook. That is as good as I can figure with all the top secret discussions. This is like raw data before it truth for distribution.
They found parts of a carbine north of the extension.
There were three maps displayed by Donahue with activity to the north.
I asked Donahue to look at Benteen's map again and the triangles indicating dead soldiers at "m"
There is red marker next to the stone building.
I don't think this constitutes absolute proof of anything but it is consistent with travel to the north of LSH.
I am sure I have left some things out. For instance I recall reading about 6 troopers being found to the north and close to river.
Also Doug Scott talked two years ago about the timber that was there to the north along the river at Ford Ds which is not there today.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by Beth on Jul 8, 2016 20:06:28 GMT
Steve, I know the photo you are referring to, so would the skirmish line in that picture be located about here? (red line); If that red line is close to the current road in front of the visitor center than yes
Steve
BTW thank you for including the North arrow for those of us who are directionally challenged.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 8, 2016 21:10:58 GMT
You are welcome Beth.
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 9, 2016 9:58:20 GMT
The tale on an officer being shot off his horse at a ford just has to be raised again here, mainly because we are picking through the JSIT and the notion that Custer took all five north with him.
Right if this officer was Smith and as we know his remains were found with the HQ and not with his company, then wouldn’t this incident be likely to happen at ford D rather that ford B?
Let’s look at it again, if for instance Smith was wounded at ford B and we say that after this shooting they all moved up to battle ridge, after which Keogh stayed behind to hold the area with his three companies while Custer went off scouting, now that is the most common theory which is banded about. But hang on, they have a wounded officer, so why not leave the poor man with Keogh, while Custer moves off to find what’s up ahead. Seems crazy to me that they would set up a position on high ground and still cart off a wounded officer on another mission.
So I would guess that this shooting happened not at ford B, but at ford D and they dragged the poor man with them to cemetery hill in which he was treated by Dr. Lord (and explains the pause mentioned by the Indians), which left his company under the command of Sturgis. Smith then died with the rest of the HQ including his doctor, on LSH and not with his company and certainly not with Keogh, which would have been the most likely position if he got shot at MTF.
What do you think?
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 9, 2016 10:22:36 GMT
Ian,
Your two posts stir the pot and should give one pause. Remember Godfrey postulates that the shod hooves at Ford B were there because that is where the captured horses were herded across the river. So maybe there never was an approach by the cavalry there.
There is more meat on the bones of your posts, I will allow others to chew on that.
Regards, Tom
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Post by deadwoodgultch on Jul 9, 2016 10:45:04 GMT
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Post by yanmacca on Jul 9, 2016 10:50:11 GMT
Tom I may as well ask you if you have read the book; A Terrible Glory: Custer and the Little Bighorn.
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