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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 12, 2016 14:25:50 GMT
I just thought that any accounts that mention the number of companies should warrant a mention, they would look like groups to the Indians, these could be platoons rather than companies, but with these units being so small would they bother dividing them? The mention is fine and point taken. I just know part of this discussion is at a variance with some of the traditional interpretations of the Custer sector. I learned long ago to think critically.
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Post by yanmacca on May 12, 2016 14:32:05 GMT
I am a humble man with slow tying skills, it took me an age to do that lot, I don't claim that any of it was correct, but if we don't offer up accounts like this then we are going to get nowhere.
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Post by quincannon on May 12, 2016 14:49:53 GMT
The mention of companies only has value if the person making said mention knows what a company is, and if he does how does he know, from where did he learn it.
Now if this person knows what a company is and what it should look like, sort of, then the mention of four companies is very significant.
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Post by yanmacca on May 12, 2016 14:59:01 GMT
Chuck, I reckon that White Bull saw four formations up on the high ground, and this was interpreted by those doing the account as companies, it does suggest that these formations simply broke and ran to each other, which is what happened from FFR via Calhoun to the Keogh sector.
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Post by Beth on May 12, 2016 15:50:08 GMT
When I was reading that account I wondered if White Bull was calling clusters or groups of soldiers, companies. He might not have been aware of the make up military wise of things but he could be saying there was four groups of soldiers perhaps some by the river, another on Cemetery Ridge, Keogh's group and Calhoun?
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Post by yanmacca on May 12, 2016 15:55:26 GMT
Well he did name the colour of the horses as bay's, grey's and sorrels, which covers every company involved on the Custer battlefield. But again there is different shades of sorrel and bay, H Company had "blood bay's" and G and K Companies had "sorrels", with C Company having "light sorrels" A Company had "coal black" But the most numerous was just plain "sorrel" which was used to mount six companies.
Company M had what ever was left, so they had a mix of every colour.
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colt45
First Lieutenant
Posts: 439
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Post by colt45 on May 12, 2016 16:16:16 GMT
It looks like there is more and more evidence that Custer took 4 companies with him toward Ford D. JSIT says this, Godfrey backs it up, and now White Bull alludes to 4 companies, though his interpretation of what a company is can be suspect. Taking 4 with him to Ford D for attack purposes makes sense and is in keeping with his character. Leaving L behind to watch the back door also makes good sense.
In a previous scenario, I suggested maybe Calhoun sent a messenger to Custer asking for help when things got hot. Using Ian's map and Chuck yellow lines, I have another wild idea. Let's say Custer left L company behind to watch the Ford B/Deep Coulee highway into his rear and maybe to watch for Benteen. He takes the other 4 to Ford D, hits resistance trying to cross, and falls back to the lines Chuck had Ian draw on the map. E company is on the line facing the river, F company is on the line facing the area of the restaurant (too bad they couldn't shoot the hamburger cook there). I company and C company are just east behind E company. As pressure begins to build, Custer sends C company back to retrieve L company with orders for both to come to him, as he sees he will need all 5 in order to cross at the ford and attack. Considering the tired condition of the mounts, plus the distance from Cemetery ridge to Calhoun Hill, it will take C company at least 10, maybe 15 minutes to get to Calhoun Hill.
Once there, C company finds that L company is in the process of having its butt handed to it, so they move to L's right flank and go down the coulee. While all this is going on, Custer's companies are still in their positions, fighting lightly at first, but beginning to feel more and more pressure. This could account for the "wait" that accounts say occurred in the cemetery area. As the pressure gets a little too much to bear, Custer sends Keogh and I company east to cross battle ridge and setup cover so E and F can withdraw, as it is now obvious to Custer he isn't going to be able to cross at Ford D and he is now on the defensive.
Keogh and I company cross battle ridge to the east side and run smack-dab into hostiles that used to be on L company's left flank, plus the fleeing survivors of C and L and the hostiles pursuing them, plus the folks coming their way via Deep Ravine. This could account for White Bull's description of soldiers crossing the ridge to the north and getting killed, as BR runs kind of northwest to southeast. E and F companies begin to fall back toward LSH, with the left flank of E company going toward Deep Ravine as the rout is now on and moving uphill is no longer a good option. Imagine the surprise when they all get to LSH and find what's left of I, C, and L coming their way, followed by all their feathered friends.
Under this possible scenario, we have all 5 companies in their historic locations with an explanation of how they got there that fits with some of the better Indian accounts, and fits with standard military tactics, mainly fire and maneuver (using 1 unit to support the movement of others via fire). In Custer's case, I company was never able to setup firing positions on BR due to the collapse of C and L while E,F, and I were still down in the cemetery area. Had I company remained on the west side of BR, perhaps trying to support E company or cover Deep Ravine, the Indians that dealt with C and L would have poured over BR from the east and all the markers would be on the west side of BR instead of the swale area.
Under this scenario I discount the concept of Keogh commanding a battalion. I think Custer was treating each company as a single unit and was sending each company where he wanted from the moment he left Calhoun Hill. You know, we may be getting closer to describing what actually happened than we realize. All of this certainly goes against the accepted theory of the battle, but does seem to fit the facts that we have. In any event, this is just another one of my wild flights of fancy.
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Post by quincannon on May 12, 2016 16:50:36 GMT
Wild flight of fancy my butt. We all sound like my crazy Aunt Petunia in discussing this, at least to those to whom the dogma of the written word is sacrosanct, but I think we are on the very cusp of developing an alternative scenario, that makes a lot more sense than the one that has been taken as gospel. Lots of vested interests won't want to go near this stuff, but that does not make it wrong.
The nice thing to me about the way we have gone about this is that we have done it collectively, each of us recognizing the possibility, and sifting and refining that possibility until it takes on some form of final shape here in the near future.
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Post by BrevetorCoffin on May 12, 2016 18:28:18 GMT
I am a humble man with slow tying skills, it took me an age to do that lot, I don't claim that any of it was correct, but if we don't offer up accounts like this then we are going to get nowhere. Agreed Ian. Then again I read Plato's Republic ages ago and took to heart his advice to feed the soul ( or intellect or whatever term he used) with rich arguments. I have no qualms with new ideas as lomg as they are based on a solid foundation. I am in the "serious condideration" phase for 4 companies moving toward Ford D, completely bypassing Ford B. Best, David
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Post by yanmacca on May 12, 2016 20:02:16 GMT
Ok then Chaps and Chapess (Beth), who thinks that the notion of a firebrand like Custer leaving three companies behind and then going on a recce mission is correct, I personally have been wary of this for a few years, as to me it makes no sense, as Custer was there to fight and not to prissy about.
Yan.
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mac
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,790
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Post by mac on May 13, 2016 11:22:18 GMT
Interesting conversation and decent thought process. Having said that; I don't buy it. It doesn't add up. If four went forward then four would have died together. Most likely would have put up a slightly better defense. There is no logical reason for two going back. If L got into trouble, more likely they would have gone north rather than two going south. Also if Custer couldn't cross at B and with the hordes massing would he have left one company to protect the rear. Doubtful. The generally accepted separation makes more sense to me. Regards Matt Matt The suggestion, I believe, is that he did not ever try to cross at B but rather went across MTC higher up to Calhoun Hill. Hence no evidence of any fighting around B. Cheers
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Post by yanmacca on May 13, 2016 12:31:56 GMT
One of the reason that I don't buy the recon business is this, if Custer was on battle ridge then surly he could see everything he needed to know from this position. It gave excellent views especially with field glasses, and GAC, TWC, Cook and of course the eagle eyed Bouyer would be able to locate not only the northern end of the village, but the way the ridge line takes you right behind it. Here is a view from LSH;
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Post by yanmacca on May 13, 2016 14:20:42 GMT
I agree Mac, to the Indians a coulee, ravine, hill or crossing point is just that, a feature with no name and every account has those features, so is it any surprise that these two locations (B & D) get mixed up. The idea of ford B being the crossing point is mainly because MTC takes you right there, and people naturally think that this was an obvious rout to take, but the amount of accounts that say Custer came from the high ridge line and not down MTC, out weigh the obvious.
Yan.
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dave
Brigadier General
Posts: 1,679
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Post by dave on May 13, 2016 15:22:20 GMT
Yan Your photo from the top of Last Stand Hill is so peaceful and idyllic that one is hard pressed to imagine the violence that occurred there almost 140 years ago. The mute stones allude to the horrific events and man's inhumanity to man. We seem to be the only creatures that continually attempt to reduce our numbers world wide. How far man has fallen. Regards Dave
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Post by yanmacca on May 13, 2016 15:26:35 GMT
Yes Dave I agree, but do you think that he could glean all the info he needed from there instead of detaching eighty men and changing his focus from attack to recce.
Don't forget we are talking about Custer here and not Mark Clark.
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